kovachii futures !!

[malipoense]

I just came accross this : Kovachii futures on Orchid Limited web site

http://www.orchidweb.com/cat_dtl.asp...r=1&tpn=1//url

I am "astonished" (to say the least) about the terms of this offer, and especially things like

"If the plants suddenly die from disease or insect infestation Orchids Limited will not be held liable for any losses"

being here in Europe, I have a feeling such terms would never be accepted, so I was just wondering what you guys think about this....

( not sure about what section I should be posting this in....)

[JOHNnDC]

I just read this part, that makes me feel less annoyed by their terms:

If something should happen to your plant(s) and we are not able to fulfill your order, you will certainly be notified. You can still use the deposit towards any other plant purchases from the Orchids Limited web site www.orchidweb.com.

[phrag guy]

That is total rediculus (sorry about the spelling) . Anyone that sends them money is crazy. In the next few years there will be lots of the plants available. This spring the other nursery down in Peru will be shipping there plants also. Once the 2 year ban is up we will see plants coming from everywhere. The people who got them first will try to make a fortune off of them. Just like the first besseae's. Before you can flower out a kovachii there will be crosses ready to flower out. I think if you want a plant that bad buy a flask or split on some flasks and have them sent. Here in Can they are leagal to bring in so I would imagine it is the same in the U.S.A as they are alraedy down there. There is lots of people in the U.S.A and Can that have flasks. If you just want one to own than I would wait. If you are going to use it in crosses than buy a flask and get them growing. I think when spring comes in 2006 both nurserys will be selling them for less than at first as they have had time to make more seed pods and crosses.This is my opinon and I am one that would love to have one or two plants or more to make crosses with and I am waiting till spring to see what happens. But I would never pay what Orchid Limited wants.

[Ron-NY]

neither would I pay those prices! Rossell is correct. The market will soom be flooded with kovachii and it's crosses.

Who set that 2 year limit on these flasks? Was it INRENA? What was the purpose of not releasing the plants from these flasks for 2 years? It seems counter-productive to conservation have it.

[phragfan]

I have been in contact with a person who seems to be "on the inside" of the Phrag. kovachii saga. He has been warning me about PeruFlora and their plants for some time. I just received an email from him that includes the following: (I've left off names and personal messages.)
________________
I remember a long time ago that you asked me if your employer should purchase Phrag. kovachii flasks from Manolo Arias (Peruflora) and warning you against such a purchase. Flasks of 50-60 seedlings were sold for US$ 1,060.- .

After the WOC in Dijon, several of my friends did purchase flasks and sent me pictures. I called Arias' flasks garbage. (two names) went to Peru to pick up flasks that were just as bad.

I asked (them) to please send me pictures of their flasks........they had excuses why they could not send them to me. Right don't show others the crap you purchased simply because you were so anxious having this species on your shelf. Many people purchased flasks because they have illegal Pk plants. They want to tell people all they sell is from legal flasks..

I do know US citizens who have illegal Pk plants and will at all costs purchase a legal flask to hide the contraband behind... A well respected former AOS official walked in on (one man) and met him in the greenhouse, he immediately spotted a Pk in bloom. I had talked to the man who has the Pk, not that long before, for I knew he had been to the Pk habitat in Peru I suspected to pick up illegal plants. When I steered the conversation in that direction, I was told he went there only to take pictures of the Pk. (Right guy, tell me another fairy tale!!!)

One other story is emerging now. Peruflora lists 140 purchasers of Pk flasks, some as the picture shows purchased 6 flasks so they Peruflora has sold an estimated 800 flasks. There is no way in hell that 5 plants produce enough seeds for that many flasks. The story is that Pk seeds were purchased by Manuel Arias, after he had made enemies by accusing others of being smugglers of Pk. (he was the top name on that list!!!) Now the story goes that his enemies had a hand in Pk seeds being sold to Arias as Pk seeds, that in fact were not Pk seeds. If Arias sold them as Pk flasks, then Peruflora is finished.

Here are some facts: Pk plants produce few capsules, Pk seed capsules produce few seeds, many Pk seeds have no embryo, many Pk seeds with embryos are not viable. Thus if you start with percentages of percentages of percentages, etc. etc. you end up with very few seeds that germinate of 5 plants.
Now Arias is applying for export permits for Pk divisions and claims to have 90 divisions. Bullshit again. If you take all the divisions of Phrags you will have no flowers and no seeds!! But at Arias, you can apparently have your cake and eat it.

The hybrids propagated by Arias may not work out either, for at least one parent is self pollinating. Thus if the seedlings flower out and do not look at all like Pk, Arias can say, well they took the characteristics from their non-Pk parent.

You may tell this to others, just leave my name off and simply tell them your source has asked his name be kept out of this.
______________
So, as I've said before, be carefull...
Dot

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by phragfan

I have been in contact with a person who seems to be "on the inside" of the Phrag. kovachii saga. He has been warning me about PeruFlora and their plants for some time.

One other story is emerging now. Peruflora lists 140 purchasers of Pk flasks, some as the picture shows purchased 6 flasks so they Peruflora has sold an estimated 800 flasks. There is no way in hell that 5 plants produce enough seeds for that many flasks. The story is that Pk seeds were purchased by Manuel Arias, after he had made enemies by accusing others of being smugglers of Pk. (he was the top name on that list!!!) Now the story goes that his enemies had a hand in Pk seeds being sold to Arias as Pk seeds, that in fact were not Pk seeds. If Arias sold them as Pk flasks, then Peruflora is finished.

Here are some facts: Pk plants produce few capsules, Pk seed capsules produce few seeds, many Pk seeds have no embryo, many Pk seeds with embryos are not viable. Thus if you start with percentages of percentages of percentages, etc. etc. you end up with very few seeds that germinate of 5 plants.
Now Arias is applying for export permits for Pk divisions and claims to have 90 divisions. Bullshit again. If you take all the divisions of Phrags you will have no flowers and no seeds!! But at Arias, you can apparently have your cake and eat it.

I just want to make a few comments to the above post. Not trying to start a fight with your source, just adding what I know.

I kinda feel like I am on the ´inside´ as well. Almost every orchid conversation that I have in Ecuador touches on kovachii. I spent 4 days at PeruFlora and stayed at Manolos house. I have been to 3 of PeruFloras greenhouses and to their lab. I have seen their legal kovachii plants, there kovachii flasks and their kovachi mother flask. I have also had conversations and lunch with Alfredo Manrique, the other legal owner of flasks.

I have also heard that Perufloras flasks might not be pure. Manolo is a smart man, he would not risk his buisness buy doing that. If there if truth in the rumor that he bought seeds, them maybe the seeds he bought wern´t kovachii. Except that kovachii has a very hairy ovary and a capsule would be easy to distinhuish. But he could of used dry seed. Except with all the humidity down here, the seed would for sure be very contaminated and difficult to sow (but not impossible). When I saw his plants, they were without capsules or spikes. I was told that after two back to back seasons of carring capsules, he was giving them a rest.

Could he have gotten a lot of seed from the 5 plants he collected? Yes, he collected the 5 largest plants he could find. He would probably of gotten more then 5 blooms, maybe 3 times that. And some spikes can have 2 flowers. About 3 or 4 months ago, INRENA seized another 50 plants. PeruFlora was given permission to pollenate those plants. I don´t know how many they pollenated. But they collected the capsules 2 weeks ago.

As I said, I have seen the PeruFlora plants. Manolo does not have 90 divisions. He made no mention of applying for permits when I was with him. From what he told me about INRENA, they would never give him a permit to do that and Manolo knows better then to ask. Some countries consider division an acceptable form of ´artificial propagation´, but CITIES will not allow any wild collected Appendix 1 species out of its own country, niether will it grant import permits for wild collected material. There are exceptions for scientific purposes.

Manolo told me he was only allowed to export around 150 flasks in 2005.

From what I observed in the wild, yes, most plants do not get pollenated. I only saw 3 capsules, all one one clump. But, I have heard they are full of seed and they germiante and grow very fast. I know of some people with seed who have confirmed this. However, Alfredo Manrique said germiantion was poor. Could be the media he used. Alfredo is having a hell of a time getting permits, when I spoke with him last he still was not succesful. That very well could of changed.

I hope all those who have bought flasks, end up with the right plants.

Kyle

[phrag guy]

This saga will continue. I also know a person on the inside and I will not go there.
Buyer beware. It is very corroupt down there. All they want is $$$.

[stock]

Kyle, thanks very much for your input. It is refreshing to get info from someone who has actually been to Peruflora and seen what the situation really is. I would guess from what I know about the flasks in this country that having abundant viable seed was not a problem. If it was there would not have been so many (possibly too many) plants in the flasks. Since that rumor is apparently false it is possible that much of what is being said about Pk and Peruflora is also false. Time (relatively short time) will tell. In the meantime it would be wise for all of us to relax and wait and not let a few people make a killilng on this wonderful Phrag that we will all probably own if a very short time. Before we all run out and buy hybrids, it would be nice to know if Phrag. kovachii is a tetraploid or a diploid. This would make a lot of difference in the hybrids. I am not really very thrilled about all of the triploid Phrags now available.
Dean Stock

[Paphgirl]

Well stated Dr. Stock!

The saga continues. I have decided that I am not in a rush.

[silence882]

Great thread! It would be nice to get some insight from the people who are directly involved with the production and distribution of kovachii.

As for the Orchids Limited offer... Wow what a total rip-off. This is the sort of thing that makes me not order from companies because I feel they can't be trusted. My guess would be this offer does more harm than good for Orchids Limited.

As for the id question, how long will we have to wait for the seedlings to bloom? I know it's a bit of schadenfreude but I find watching these sorts of controversies to be hilarious.

Next question! How complicated is a chromosome squash? It seems like aside from the need for a good quality microscope, all of the other stuff could be done without too much expense.

--Stephen