Ok here is one of my paphs that I thought was pretty nice. It is a first bloom in this photo, and I think next bloom (soon I hope) will be even nicer. But what do you think of this one? Sorry I don't have sizes written down and these photos are from last year's bloom.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a93/tdrollo/2006_0318Image0156.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a93/tdrollo/2006_0318Image0155.jpg

That's a monster flower........amazing!!! How big is the pouch?

Looks pretty good to me. The flower looks quite large!

It is a beauty, love the size, shape and color! In my book, it is a winner!:thumbsup:

Paph Memoria Larry Heuer = malipoense x emersonii. Overall, the flower is very pretty and nice to look at.

The dorsal is slightly reflexed, and the petals droop a little and are also reflexed some. However, given the apparent size of the flower, I would consider submitting it for judging. My only reservation is that I have seen malipoense x hangianum being sold as Mem. Larry Heuer and the flowers are huge. I do not have the knowledge to tell the two apart. Yours may be the real Larry Heuer. I only make the comment because of the flower's incredible size.

Good growing, Teresa!

OOOO! :drool:
Can anyone say lime and cherries!
I love the foliage in it! WOOHOO

very beauty:heart:

OOOO! :drool:
Can anyone say lime and cherries!
I love the foliage in it! WOOHOO

The flower looks yummy, doesn't it? :drool:

Orchid Cannibals Unite! :drool: :drool: :drool:

That is a plant I'd love to have in my collection. It really does look huge.

I personally believe that this is not a Mem. Larry Heuer. It is a cross using hangianum. Anyway, regardless of the heritage, I do not think that this flower is an award quality flower.

Reason:
1. Dorsal - reflects at the bottom left and top right.
2. Lack of fullness.

Many times, it is not that easy to express why a flower is not worthy of award. Most of the time, I can just see right away that a flower has no WOW factor (just regular looking flower for that species or hybrids assuming I am familiar with the parentage or species). With complex hybrids, however, the parentage becomes not that important. Knowing industry standard is more important.


RS

Absolutely beautiful:cool:

John

Thank you for your comments. This plant has a second growth that is nearing maturity so I will be very curious to see the 2nd bloom. I will be sure and show it here!

I agree with the comments about the dorsal, and the slightly droopy petals. Maybe if the petals were more horizontal it would look fuller.

OK orchid cannibals...please reserve your cannibalistic comments for the regular paph gallery! :offtopic:

I'm not a judge but I actually like the droopy look of the petals. Also, petals become droppy as they age.

I tend to agree this one is made with hangianum rather than an emersonii.. the red blushes on the petals and the shape of the flower are so hangianum-like. :fcrossed: for you Teresa! The second blooming should be better! :Party:

Teresa,

You can use this plant as a way to learn how to grow this type of plant. Later, when you are sure how to grow this kind of plant. You may want to start buying expensive plants that most paph nuts desire to have. By having several well known clones, you can start trading with serious paph people. Good plants can only be traded with good plants or serious monies.

By the way, your plant is actually pretty good. It has pleasing look. If you grow them well, you can get CCM or CCE. Actually, I am more impressed by people who can grow healthy plants. People can buy awards easily, for example...One can just go to the OrchidZone and buy a nice plant. Few days later, he or she can bring to the judging and get an award. However, I do not know any orchid growers that sell their big specimen plant, especially when the plant in bloom.

RS

Teresa this is a good looking flower, could be good enough for an award in my book.:cool:

John

I agree with the lack of fullness comment, it looks slightly deflated. Also, I can't tell if its just the camera angle or not, but the pouch seems a little deviated, the left half seems to be bigger than the right half :confused: paphs deviated septum :rolleyes: Still a pretty plant though!

Teresa,
Make sure all your doors are well locked tonight , have you suitcase ready, in case the orchid police knock on your door tonight.
And, use the window for escaping. I seen in the movies, they always have someone by the backdoor:unsure:
Kidding aside, I do not think that you guys should say, or presume that Teresa's Mem. Larry Heuer is made with hangianum.
I disagree with the verdicts for the following reasons:
-who among us have seen enough emersonii x malipoense to be sure that this cross can not produce such a progeny?
-furthermore, who among us can profess to ever seen one hangianum x malipoense here in the US. let alone enough clones to say so.
Only nursery peoples who seen thousand & thousand of blooming plants with diferrent parent clones can try to guess (and they are not infallible either)
-Size wise, emersonii is supposed to be near the size of hangianum.
the malipense clone size that are using in the cross can also help increase the dimension. I seen a Mem Larry Heuer at Deepcut show with the look of the emersonii parent but gigantic, even bigger than Teresa's flower. I wish I bought that one
-personally, I think the flex of the dorsal is typical inherited from emersonii.
-the red veins mean nothings. you guys forget that malipoense carry this trait. Some emersonii also has slight red on the petals toward the juncture.
(the only way to avoid have this red veins that you guys accusing of from hangianum is using an alba malipoense or jackii w/ and alba hangianum)
The above thought is just my amateur opinions, not expert by any mean.

Well thanks Hien, I am making my secret escape routes now...I will hide in the shed above the skunk nest in my backyard. If anyone dares to venture that way they could be in for a NASTY surprise!

Nice enough flower. Had I seen the close up only I would have considered awarding it. Probably high 70s or so. Seeing the other photo changed my mind. Still I think it has potential on further flowerings.

Just wondering if the plant was moved while the bud was developing as that could explain the way the flower sits in relation to the stem. That concerns me more than the reflexing in the dorsal.

All that said I would not be too sad to have it in my collection.

Nynaeve, how big is that flower in actuality, as in a measurement in centimeters or inches of natural spread?

I like the flower, except for the shape. I think flowers look better formed if segments are wider at the base and narrow to the ends whereas this clone has a dog ear look. The bottom is full, but the top of the flower isn't. But other than that I like the flower. I think form needs to be improved, then it can win an award.

Paph Mem Larry Heuer (malipoense x emersonii) and Paph Shun-fa Golden (malipoense x hangianum) are very difficult to tell apart. /while I've not judged either plant face-to-face, I have seen wuite a number of both of these online (and have assumes they are tagged correctly - which may not be a given). Nynaeve's plant could easily be either but if it was bought from a reputable, reliable, trustworthy nusery, it is probably tagged correctly and probably is Mem Larry as tagged.

A note on the sizes of emersonii and hangianum flowers: hangianum is measurably larger

Just wondering if the plant was moved while the bud was developing as that could explain the way the flower sits in relation to the stem. That concerns me more than the reflexing in the dorsal.


I bought the plant in bloom and it was shipped in bloom...this photo was after unpacking.

Nynaeve, how big is that flower in actuality, as in a measurement in centimeters or inches of natural spread?


These photos were taken a year ago when it was in bloom. It should bloom again soon as it has another mature growth now. I'm sorry I did not measure it a year ago.

Paph Mem Larry Heuer (malipoense x emersonii) and Paph Shun-fa Golden (malipoense x hangianum) are very difficult to tell apart. While I've not judged either plant face-to-face, I have seen quite a number of both of these online (and have assumed they are tagged correctly - which may not be a given). Nynaeve's plant could easily be either but if it was bought from a reputable, reliable, trustworthy nusery, it is probably tagged correctly and probably is Mem Larry as tagged.

A note on the sizes of emersonii and hangianum flowers: hangianum is measurably larger

It was bought from a very reputable dealer, and I bought it in bloom. I guess we will have to wait until it blooms again to measure it! WHen I do a google image search for this bloom I see a wide variation in blooms.

nynaeve,

Ah, good then. If you bought it from a reliable nusery then the tag is very likely to be correct. If it were me, I'd consider it correct and probably wouldn't give it another thought.

There's been much discussion on the flower shape. Here's one more opinion (not that different form others) to regard or disregard as you see fit: I find everything about the flower to be of a very high quality (the size issues aside) except for the dorsal. Dorsals, as you probably know, can be funny though: perfect one blooming, a train wreck the next. I am somewhat optimistic it will be straighter on the next blooming (i seem to recall somewhere you saying it was a first-bloom) as a flower usually does not reach its full potantial on a first-bloom. Next time if the dorsal presents better, I think I'd take it to be judged. Besides, even if they turn it down for an award, it's an interesting experience and you might learn something. Award or no award, you've still got a rewarding flower.

Cheers

Teresa - If mine turns out 1/2 as nice as that one I'll be thrilled. I keep looking for it to start spiking because it looks like it's blooming size. Yours looks very well grown also.

PaphGuy made a great point about cultural awards vs. plant quality awards. Many of the people that have been growing for awhile say that a cultural award is the most meaningful to them because it is given to the grower.

Paph

Teresa
The electrical outlet is about 2-3/4 x 4-1/2
The tile is 6 x 6 (8-1/2" diagonal)
Since your flower is not placed parallel to the wall , I can only approximate it at 6-1/2 to 7 inches range more or less.

Teresa,
Make sure all your doors are well locked tonight , have you suitcase ready, in case the orchid police knock on your door tonight.
And, use the window for escaping. I seen in the movies, they always have someone by the backdoor:unsure:
Kidding aside, I do not think that you guys should say, or presume that Teresa's Mem. Larry Heuer is made with hangianum.
I disagree with the verdicts for the following reasons:
-who among us have seen enough emersonii x malipoense to be sure that this cross can not produce such a progeny?
-furthermore, who among us can profess to ever seen one hangianum x malipoense here in the US. let alone enough clones to say so.
Only nursery peoples who seen thousand & thousand of blooming plants with diferrent parent clones can try to guess (and they are not infallible either)
-Size wise, emersonii is supposed to be near the size of hangianum.
the malipense clone size that are using in the cross can also help increase the dimension. I seen a Mem Larry Heuer at Deepcut show with the look of the emersonii parent but gigantic, even bigger than Teresa's flower. I wish I bought that one
-personally, I think the flex of the dorsal is typical inherited from emersonii.
-the red veins mean nothings. you guys forget that malipoense carry this trait. Some emersonii also has slight red on the petals toward the juncture.
(the only way to avoid have this red veins that you guys accusing of from hangianum is using an alba malipoense or jackii w/ and alba hangianum)
The above thought is just my amateur opinions, not expert by any mean.

Hien,

These days people travel freely. People can see Paph. hangianum when they are outside of the States. In addition, there are many pictures of Paph. hangianum posted in the internet. People can just sit at home and view those pictures.

Commercial people in the States cannot and will not name this cross by its real name. It is so obvious that this plant was made with hangianum. The marking of the petals tells all.

RS

Hien,

These days people travel freely. People can see Paph. hangianum when they are outside of the States. In addition, there are many pictures of Paph. hangianum posted in the internet. People can just sit at home and view those pictures.

Commercial people in the States cannot and will not name this cross by its real name. It is so obvious that this plant was made with hangianum. The marking of the petals tells all.

RS
You maybe right, Ron, if it is true, then, Teresa actually gets a better deal for the price.
It is better than the reverse situation, in my case, I bought the :
"hangianum x rothschildianum" from Norman orchids.
The consensus opinion from SOF members is that the thing is probably a Mem Larry Heuer.:surprise:
Teresa, want to trade so you can have the real Mem Larry Heuer (disguised under the name "hangianum" x "rothschildianum")?:p:drunk:

There have been a population of Paph Larry Heuer sold in the U.S. that are obviously created with hangianum rather than emersonii. They were sold as the above cross because the true cross is illegal. They are easily seperated by size and color from the true cross. This flower has hangianum as one of the parents.

The flower is large and fairly ungainly, but spectacular. It isn't award quality even if it is named correctly, but I would love to own it! The flower has problems with confirmation, and the reflexing dorsal doesn't help. My guess is that some siblings of this cross are award quality.

Many judges are aware of this misnamed cross and are extremely reticent to consider awarding these plants. The true Paph Larry Heuer does not compare to the size of this version. Perhaps some have already been awarded incorrectly if people are not award of the problem.

Wow this is such an enlightening thread! I can't wait until I have something else bloom so that I can hear what everyone has to say.

I also can't wait for this plant to bloom again so I can compare. Interesting discussion on whether this plant is what it is labeled to be. I would feel bad taking it to judging if there is question of it's identity. Nevertheless I love it for my own personal enjoyment and to wow my friends. :D

teresa,

In the pics, it has a blue tag, correct? If it is a blue tag, then you got it from fox valley. If you got it from fox valley, then it probably is not part hangianum, unless Tom got lured into getting a pure hangianum that was thought to be a emersonii. So, it would be a real mem. larry heuer if you got it from fox valley.

that is my 2 sense.

I would submit this plant for judging, but I wouldn't expect a reward. The dorsal is not only reflexed, it hurts the flower's fullness. The averaged stats for the DSW and PW for this cross indicate that they only differ by 1 cm or less, and DSL vs. PL differing by .9-1.1 cm, with the DS averaging slightly smaller than the petals. This tanslates into the visual in this way: The Dorsal should be about the same size, possibly a little smaller, than the petals. The reflex may improve with future bloomings, as well as the DS size, but this flower would probably (IMHO) garner an award. I believe first bloom seedlings are generally discouraged from being presented to judging, so maybe you should save it for next year's blooming..

teresa,

In the pics, it has a blue tag, correct? If it is a blue tag, then you got it from fox valley. If you got it from fox valley, then it probably is not part hangianum, unless Tom got lured into getting a pure hangianum that was thought to be a emersonii. So, it would be a real mem. larry heuer if you got it from fox valley.


You are very observant! Not much gets by you, eh? ;) Yes it is from Fox Valley. It is quite probable that when Fox Valley purchased this batch of Mem Larry Heuer's they were probably small seedlings, or at least not in bloom. It would be close to impossible for anyone to tell the difference as a small seedling. I sniffed it and smelled a delightful lemony fragrance, so I fell in love with the flower and had to have it.

I would submit this plant for judging, but I wouldn't expect a reward. The dorsal is not only reflexed, it hurts the flower's fullness. The averaged stats for the DSW and PW for this cross indicate that they only differ by 1 cm or less, and DSL vs. PL differing by .9-1.1 cm, with the DS averaging slightly smaller than the petals. This tanslates into the visual in this way: The Dorsal should be about the same size, possibly a little smaller, than the petals. The reflex may improve with future bloomings, as well as the DS size, but this flower would probably (IMHO) garner an award. I believe first bloom seedlings are generally discouraged from being presented to judging, so maybe you should save it for next year's blooming..

Well that photo is of LAST year's bloom (March 2006) so hopefully I will have a THIS year's bloom soon. Here it is right now...new growth truckin right along:

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7206/dscf6997ze6.th.jpg (http://img167.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf6997ze6.jpg)

First blooming is not necessarily inferior to the future blooming when you buy your plant from OZ. Most likely one will have inferior bloom once one took the plant outside of OZ greenhouse.

First blooming is not necessarily inferior to the future blooming when you buy your plant from OZ. Most likely one will have inferior bloom once one took the plant outside of OZ greenhouse.

This makes sense.

This thread is so special that I thought I would use my 1000th post on it! Yeah, not much gets by me! I notice almost everything!

This thread is so special that I thought I would use my 1000th post on it! Yeah, not much gets by me! I notice almost everything!

CONGRATULATIONS!!! Now you're going to make me look, I'm sure I have a way to go!

Mine is just opening!!:woohoo:

Ramon:D