Just kidding! :D
Dirty deed done....

I feel like SUCH a mom! :love:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/ahmcd33/2efe43a5.jpg

Alright, glad you decided to self that guy.
I am planning on making some crosses myself. In the next day or two I am going to try pollen from the philippinense alba onto my Gemstones Randchild that is just now fully open. Could be neat, or really ugly.
I am also thinking of trying some Phragmipaphium hybridizing myself now that I have some 4n besseae pollenia to work with. Not sure what I'm going to cross it with, but they seem most fertile with Parvis. I am hoping the 4n makes a difference, but who knows.

Jon

Alright, glad you decided to self that guy.
Jon

Actually, I used some of Rick's award winning polliniia! :D
It was rather dry, and I spritzed both it and the staminoid, then spread it on when it was rehydrated enough. Not sure I didn't screw it up, and also my bloom is pretty old. I used the second oldest.

At least it was yet another good learning experience and I won't be so afraid the next time.

I am planning on making some crosses myself. In the next day or two I am going to try pollen from the philippinense alba onto my Gemstones Randchild that is just now fully open. Could be neat, or really ugly.
I am also thinking of trying some Phragmipaphium hybridizing myself now that I have some 4n besseae pollenia to work with. Not sure what I'm going to cross it with, but they seem most fertile with Parvis. I am hoping the 4n makes a difference, but who knows.

Jon

Jon, good luck!
I look forward to hearing about your intergenetic experiments! P. besseae x micranthum? As much as I have concerns about parvi crosses, might be interesting, if it takes.

SO, what do folks think about this Phragmipaphium business, anyway? I know there is some skepticism associated with it. Look forward to your comments. Or maybe we should have a new thread about it?

I hope it takes Heather. You should know in about a week, when the flower craps out, but the ovary stays green.



By the way my plants a ribbon winner, but not AOS awarded.

I hope it takes Heather. You should know in about a week, when the flower craps out, but the ovary stays green.



By the way my plants a ribbon winner, but not AOS awarded.

Oh, well still...

Hey, check out my response in the other thread, I think I may have botched it! :disappointed:

You could probably scrape some of the pollen from where you stuck it, and put it were it needs to go.

I think I sent 4 or so pollinia, so you should have plenty to move around or try again on the same flower. It doesn't take a lot of pollen to get a good pollination.

LOL! Ok,
yes, I'll try to "move" it....what a dummy I am! :roll: Your bug info of course made sense. Geesh....

Ok, I was able to move it to the back.

Is this the same w/ Paphs because if so, the photos in that book don't really work...."immediately place the pollen capsule from the male parent flower onto the stigmatic surface of the femail flower. Press it in place to lightly spread the pollen over the surface."

Nothing shows pollinating the back side.

:confused: Phrag thing??

I sure hope you're doing all that with copious amounts of wine and good mood music. It's all in technique! :twisted:

Make sure you use protection! :poke: Dirty dirty adults! :)Good luck! Hope it takes!

This is something I learned recently about Phrag lindenii: it is self pollinating (in most cases) because, unlike other Phrags, it has a third fertile anther that is in direct contact with the stigma, so as the flower opens and the flower parts enlarge the pollen comes into contact with the stigma just as it becomes receptive.

I tried for years to pollinate this plant when it bloomed and nothing ever came of it until I was told it didn't need my help, and then low and behold and left alone, both flowers on a recent blooming produced seed baring capsules. (Of which nothing germinated, btw.)

I am also pretty sure, any hybrid made with this species is going to have a lip.

Here is a close up of the applicable parts. ;-)

http://www.orchidexchange.com/images/web0235d.jpg

Its the same for phrags, paphs, and cyps. Some minor differences with pollen texture and stickyness. But the position of the stigmatic surface is all in the same spot.

I have found that you don't have to get too crazy with smearing paph pollinia all over the stigma, it seems to work fine if its just placed on it.

There also seems to be a higher percentage of phrag species that are willing to "spontaneously pollinate".

exstaminodium has no staminode at all, lindenii with a 3rd anther, my warscewiczianum produced good seed (that did germinate) without any pollen transfer at all. I'm also getting a good looking spontaneous capsule on my wallisii.

There seems to be allot more info about paph pollinators than phrag pollinators. I'm curious.

Al, thank you for such a great photo, I can see it very clearly.

Okay, so, I used Rick's pollen on the second newest bloom.
I selfed the other two with each other. Just for kicks. The newest (last to open,) the pouch is quickly withering - the labellum in particular.

Is this good? The other two are not doing this. Again, they are the two older blooms.

I selfed the other two with each other. Just for kicks. The newest (last to open,)

Heather, how large is this plant?? Producing just one pod takes a lot out of a plant, let alone several pods. In general, most people do not recommend pollinating first bloom plants (especially if they are single growth) as that drains the plants quite a bit...sometimes killing it. Just a caveat.

Lien

Heather, how large is this plant?? Producing just one pod takes a lot out of a plant, let alone several pods. In general, most people do not recommend pollinating first bloom plants (especially if they are single growth) as that drains the plants quite a bit...sometimes killing it. Just a caveat.

Lien

Oh greeaaat! :roll: Thanks Lien, very much!!!!
No one told me that!! Along w/ lindenii and other long petalled Phrag species, I had heard they were pretty easy and happy pollinators, often going forward on their own.

First bloom! One pretty large growth, and I think a start, though it hasn't emerged yet, completely. So, if only one takes, will that affect it? What do I do to abort the others, or all three? (if necessary.... DON'T wish to jeapordize the plant!)

Sigh...

I don't mean to complain - but if you all wish to send me pollen, and ask me to save it for you, I need to know these things....the risks, associated (!!!)...and I imagine others new like me would also like to know in advance, if possible, please....

Have I jeapordized this plant??? This was just a learning experience for me, I don't really wish to learn how to kill my plant...frankly. :?


Thanks for advice!

Hi Heather, no need to panic :) Maybe some others can confirm or contradict what I said, but all the literature i've read has always warned about pollinating small plants, as the seed production drains the plants, but it's a long process.

You only pollinated yours a day or two... you can just break off the pollinated flowers to abort.

But again, perhaps others can add more input on this subject... though I would definately not put three pods on it (assuming they all take)

Lien

Ok - I don't mean to sound harsh - I just figure others in my boat might learn from my experience....

So, the one that was selfed that is wilting - should I wait a bit and see if any of the others take so I can then choose? I'd rather use the cross w/ Rick's pollen than a selfing, but they are not deteriorating. However, if time is of the essence, let me know please. If the Rick cross took, how long might it be before I noticed success? Then I could abort the other two, right??

I know absolutely nothing about this!!! Just playing around to learn, but don't wish to kill anything for just the experience - no, no, NO!

Hi Heather,

I don't think you need to act now ... and hopefully some others can comment as well to help you decide.

I tried googling discussions on stress from pollinating orchids, but couldn't come up with anything on the topic except this one small quote:

" dkburch Lois, the plants which carry a pod are weakened by that effort..is what Ackerman was saying. In our greenhouses we don't pollinate the same plant two years in a row for the same reason."

from: http://www.geocities.com/~marylois/archiv45.html

Lien

Heather
Ususally I don't see flower wilting on phrags for at least 3 days (and more often 5 to 7 days) post pollination. Even longer for paphs. All the Bulbos and Pleurothallids I've done close up within 48 hours sometimes less.

With regard to plant age and capsule formation. This is a mixed bag. Wallisii is a big plant to start with. And the relative size of the capsules to the plant isn't that big also. If your plant already has a couple of new growths coming up, and you are comfortable with the way its growing in general, then it can probably support 3 capsules.

In comparison I have not pollinated my single growth Paph niveum because neither the folliage and root mass seem sufficient to support a healthy plant let alone a capsule. On the other hand, my warczewiczianum produced a capsule on its own without my intervention with its first blooming. This is a small plant compared to wallisii, and the capsule mass is very big relative to the rest of the plant. I left it alone, got some viable seed, and the plant has added 3 new growths that are doing fine.

I'd go ahead and keep the outcross going, and one of the selfs if they take on your plant.

Hi Rick,
Thanks very much for your response. The oldest bloom dropped this morning, that was the one that I noticed shrivelling up the next day. The others are still "fresh" and so I think you are right. Will wait and see what happens and go from there. Thanks again!!

I blew it when I tried to pollinate some of my maudies as an experiment, as everything indicated that the pollen would go on the front of the staminoid. Then I looked in this old orchid book that I have and it has a photo that shows a paph being pollinated from the back. Interesting photo as they did not cut off the pouch. (ouch! I always hate to do that!) Instead, they took a razor and cut a square in the back of the pouch; just enough to get the pollen on to the back of the staminoid, which I guess must be the right place. :?:

My memory on my digital camera is full right now. If I can clean it up, I will try to take a photo of that picture so you can see what I mean.

And, yes Tadd, I had music & wine going while I was doing the deed. I don't think it was to set the ambient mood, but to give me fortitude to cut off the pouch!!!:roll:

Here are the photos from that book I mentioned that show a technique where you can pollinate without cutting off the pouch. The book is called "Orchid Growing Illustrated, " and was first published in the UK in 1985.

And, Sorry Tadd, I didn't mean to pick on you about the wine & romantic setting for pollination. :poke: That was Ernie's idea! :poke: I truly did drink copious amounts of wine when I did my first botched pollinating attempt. I just could not work up the courage to cut off a pouch.

Maybe the techinque from this book might help.

First you make the square cut with a razor:

http://pic17.picturetrail.com:80/VOL796/117745/7701725/101299481.jpg

Then you apply the pollen:

http://pic17.picturetrail.com:80/VOL796/117745/7701725/101299474.jpg

Has anyone tried this technique???

Well, my cross did not seem to take, the bloom I removed the pouch from dropped this morning. Oh well, thanks for the pollen Rick, I clearly need more practice. :?

Hi Heather,

Sorry it didn't take. You got me inspired to try pollinating again, so I made a Paph cross tonight. I did use that technique where you don' t cut off the entire pouch. I could see exactly where the pollen had to go, and it is humid here...

We will see what happens next.

Heather
Has the ovary turned yellow and started shrivelling too?

Heather
Has the ovary turned yellow and started shrivelling too?

Hi Rick,
two oldest ones dropped and yes, the ovary has turned yellow and is shrivelling. The last, the bloom is totally crispified, but ovary (stem?) is still bright green and flower hasn't dropped yet...is this telling?

Yes
With paphs and phrags the flower will totally crispyfy AND fall off. The ovary will stay green and continue to grow (although the growth is not much in phrags) if fertiliztion has taken place. So there is still hope for 1 of your attempts.

With the bulbos and all the pleuros I've tried, the flower will wilt, but not drop off of the swelling ovary if it takes. Otherwise the whole flower and ovary will fall off if its a no go.

Phals are pretty weird. The flower (or parts of the flower) actually turn thick and green, and kinda "incorporate" into the swelling ovary.

The third bloom dropped yesterday. Ovary still green and looks like it may be plumping to me....not sure yet.

Good luck! When do I get a cigar?

Forget the cigar!!:poke:

We want flasks, compots, or seedlings here!':evil:

Ok
I'm a bit confused as to which flower was pollinated with what pollen. So is the remaining ovary from a selfing or an outcross?

With wallisii don't expect much ovary growth. Probably less than 10-20% bigger than an unfertilized ovary.

So the "plumping" is subtle. But it will definitely stay green for the next 3 to 4 months if its good.

Ok
I'm a bit confused as to which flower was pollinated with what pollen. So is the remaining ovary from a selfing or an outcross?

With wallisii don't expect much ovary growth. Probably less than 10-20% bigger than an unfertilized ovary.

So the "plumping" is subtle. But it will definitely stay green for the next 3 to 4 months if its good.

Sorry Rick, the one that took was selfed (darn it!)

Here's a photo from this morning. Definitely not acting the way the other two did (i.e. drying up and shrivelling.)
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/ahmcd33/IMG_0785.jpg

So far so good :clap:

I just found two sheaths on my lindenii so if anyone wants pollen when it blooms, they are welcome to it.

I hope yours takes for you Heather. :D

Oh Wendy! I am so jealous! My lindenii is definitely MORE than mature enough to spike and it is being stubborn. I should really stop checking it daily - it is like watching water boil....but slower! :mad:

Congrats on yours - if mine ever does anything soon, I'll let you know on the pollen!