I just found my NFS Paph Screaming Eagle with what looks line crown rot. I'm absolutely devastated. Screaming Eagles are not cheap and are very hard to come by here. And it seemed to be doing so well. The rot doesn't seem to be that advanced as the new leaf is still pretty firm. As you can see from the photo it is hard to see the extent of the rot as it is buried inside the crown.

I have soaked the plant in fungicide etc but I'm not sure if it is too late. What should I do. Can it be saved? From the photo you can see a small new growth. Would you cut out the rot in the main growth and hope the new lead will grow on? Any advice appreciated.

David

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/emydura/rot.jpg

sit down and cry...
no, i don't know. those aren't common out this way either.
i think that if you cut out the infected parts with a sterile blade, it would only help.
saw something about using a 10% bleach solution, but that was in a post about how someone killed a plant (the person ended up pouring a little 100% bleach into the crown too, though)
saw something about a keiki paste use to 'awaken' any dormant buds.

Oh sheesh I really hate this stuff. Unfortunately I have had way too much experience with it. It depends on how advanced the infection is...if you caught it early then I think you have a good chance to save the plant. Nevertheless it hurts still because it will be a setback in growth. Cut away the infected part as much as possible. I would unpot the plant to do this and soak the entire plant in pure distilled water. Then apply cinnamon to the infected area and repot in fresh mix. Keep an eye on it and make sure you don't see the rot advancing.

This is tricky stuff. Several times I have started cutting away what I thought was a mild infection only to find that it went very deep from the inside out. I hope that's not the case with yours! It's so hard to see until it's too late. MOst of the time people don't see it until the streaks start going up the leaves. I think you have a good chance at saving your plant. Keep us posted.

PS...David I hope you don't mind I'm going to move your post to the disease section of the forum. :D

Hi David,

So sorry to hear that especially it happened to your Screaming Eagle which here in the US are really expensive and hard to find plants. I do agree with what Brian and Teresa said. Usually when you catch the disease early on, you can actually save the plant. I have saved quite a few of my own plants myself. Good luck and keep us posted!

...I would unpot the plant to do this and soak the entire plant in pure distilled water....

i don't understand this part. it seems to me that this could potentially spread the infection further. where'd you learn this? please help me understand....

i don't understand this part. it seems to me that this could potentially spread the infection further. where'd you learn this? please help me understand....

Here is the direct quote:


My experience with Physan in the past is that it can be very phytotoxic to slipper orchids in relatively small quantities (eg. 5 % solution) - especially seedlings. I no longer use it to spray plants or to soak them when I suspect there could be mold or fungal problems - I just repot them and put them in an area of higher humidity and air movement, and try to reduce the frequency of watering somewhat. Also, I have seen this kind of problem when fertilizer - especially high concentrations of it -stay pooled in the leaf axil for a period of time (like overnight).

I would not throw the plants out, but unpot them, soak them in R/O or distilled water for an hour, repot them in fresh mix in a clean pot, and then dry them off as above.

And here is the LINK. (http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=85457#post85457)

Because I noticed that David had already treated with fungicide, I didn't want to recommend something he had already tried. I am not adverse to using fungicide, but if I can solve a problem without it I will take that route first. If non chemical options don't seem to be working I will get out the big guns.

...And here is the LINK. (http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=85457#post85457)...

thanks. i don't think he's referring to crown rot there though.

thanks. i don't think he's referring to crown rot there though.

He is referring to the phytotoxicity of chemical fungicides like physan. That is a tidbit of information I did not know about until it was posted here. Did I mention that I also have alot of personal experience with crown rot? I have tried many things including physan, phyton 27 clearys 3336, triforine, daconil, consan, and soaking in pure water. Maybe from a scientific point of view it is difficult to report findings based on several different plants at several different times having crown rot. Maybe there were other factors involved in the outcome. But I can report that I have not noticed a significant difference in the outcome of treatments as long as THE INFECTED TISSUE IS REMOVED. If you leave the infected tissue, I would almost be willing to bet money that whatever treatment you use will be ultimately ineffective. There may be another treatment that I have not tried, but I am only speaking from what I know from personal experience here.

I have done more damage to my plants using chemicals than the pathogens and pests have done themselves. And yes I followed the directions on the bottle. Most chemicals out there are not tested on orchids, and I believe many are too harsh and will only compound the existing problem.

I have used the soaking in distilled water technique on infected plants and on every single healthy plant that I have ever repotted, and have had no bad results. So I will have to say from my personal experience that soaking a plant in distilled water will NOT spread infection further unless you put it in a non ventilated area where it is not allowed to dry properly.

cool. thanks for the clarification.
i recently found out that one's teeth could be more sensitive if one has a cold or a sinus infection so i've been keeping up with at least one new thing learned a week....

cool. thanks for the clarification.
i recently found out that one's teeth could be more sensitive if one has a cold or a sinus infection so i've been keeping up with at least one new thing learned a week....

Chew on some ice, maybe that will help. Maybe some nuts? :lol: :poke:

cool. thanks for the clarification.
i recently found out that one's teeth could be more sensitive if one has a cold or a sinus infection so i've been keeping up with at least one new thing learned a week....

Aha! Now I know why my teeth were so sensitive just a few days ago and today I have a sinus headache with a runny nose and have been sneezing all morning! I learned something new today as well!

i went to the dentist the day after i had a cold and my teeth were super sensitive. i mentioned it and was told that....

So is the only solution to cut it out? The situation of the rot and the way the growth is formed would mean the growth would be absolutely butchered. Basically a stem (with few or no leaves) and a small new growth. Right back to square one. Is this the idea?

David

So is the only solution to cut it out? The situation of the rot and the way the growth is formed would mean the growth would be absolutely butchered. Basically a stem (with few or no leaves) and a small new growth. Right back to square one. Is this the idea?


David, try tugging gently on the center leaf and see if it comes out. If it does, you may succeed in removing enough of the spreading rot. This has worked for me on several plants. I pull on that center leaf, and it slides out with the bottom of it all brown and oogy from the rot. I pour hydrogen peroxide in the crown and then dust with cinnamon. Then I wait to see if it spreads. I have done this with success without even repotting. I have a farrieanum with this exact problem that is recovering nicely. The growth that I removed the infected leaf from doesn't seem to be growing any new leaves, but it put out two new growths, and I think it must be still getting energy from the older growth.

Btw...I really can't see the rot in your pic. Are you sure it's rot? Did you sniff it?

I've pulled a few out with cinnamen and goldenseal root powder.

Recently tried phyton 27, but that hasn't been a panacea.

I've recently been working with Dragon's Blood (South American from the Croton lecheri tree). This has been one of the most promising things I've tried on early rot, and Erwinia infections.

But I haven't found anything that is anywher near 100%, and plants often get set back pretty far.

David, try tugging gently on the center leaf and see if it comes out. If it does, you may succeed in removing enough of the spreading rot. This has worked for me on several plants. I pull on that center leaf, and it slides out with the bottom of it all brown and oogy from the rot. I pour hydrogen peroxide in the crown and then dust with cinnamon. Then I wait to see if it spreads. I have done this with success without even repotting. I have a farrieanum with this exact problem that is recovering nicely. The growth that I removed the infected leaf from doesn't seem to be growing any new leaves, but it put out two new growths, and I think it must be still getting energy from the older growth.

Btw...I really can't see the rot in your pic. Are you sure it's rot? Did you sniff it?

That is the problem. Because there is a new leaf and the rot is buried deep in the crown it is difficult to see and interpret. I can only really see it when I spread the leaf apart. I certainly can't smell it. The rot appears to be a more dry rot (it doesn't look wet, but then I can't see much). I have had that wet rot with Cymbidiums and it doesn't seem to be like that. All I can see buried down into the crown is a lot of brown colouring on the leaves.

The new leaf is pretty firm. It certainly won't come away if I tug at it.

David

I've pulled a few out with cinnamen and goldenseal root powder.

Recently tried phyton 27, but that hasn't been a panacea.

I've recently been working with Dragon's Blood (South American from the Croton lecheri tree). This has been one of the most promising things I've tried on early rot, and Erwinia infections.

But I haven't found anything that is anywher near 100%, and plants often get set back pretty far.

Rick, I have heard of the Sangre de Grado before and I am very interested in trying this. Also the goldenseal...can I just open up the capsules that I get from the supplement store and use that?

That is the problem. Because there is a new leaf and the rot is buried deep in the crown it is difficult to see and interpret. I can only really see it when I spread the leaf apart. I certainly can't smell it. The rot appears to be a more dry rot (it doesn't look wet, but then I can't see much). I have had that wet rot with Cymbidiums and it doesn't seem to be like that. All I can see buried down into the crown is a lot of brown colouring on the leaves.

The new leaf is pretty firm. It certainly won't come away if I tug at it.



David, I don't think you have crown rot. The smell is QUITE pungent. If you put your nose near the crown you should be able to smell it. It smells like something fermenting. If you don't smell anything then I think it is just a brown spot. If it's dry and not slimy I would leave it alone and see if it spreads. I have a couple of multis that have brown in the crown. It's dry and not rot. I'm not sure what it is, but it seems harmless and doesn't spread. I can post pics if you want.

Yes opening the goldenseal capsules will work. Some of the herb stores will sell whole dry root that you could grind up super fine in a coffee grinder.

So far the dragons blood has worked on plants that I have only dosed once. On plants were infection spreads after the application it doesn't keep up. Its almost like the plant gets damaged a bit by the resin, and repeated aplications seem to cause as much harm as the disease. It seems like I've seen something like this with peroxide (which I only tried on a very limited basis).

Here is a much better photo. The brown colouring you can see is much worse further down into the growth. But it is not wet and doesn't appear to smell. I would have thought this must be some form of rot. Or is it just water markings that won't necessarily spread.

David


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/emydura/rot2.jpg

hmmm....
i dunno about crown rot but erwinia smells terrible!

It doesn't look like rot to me but I would keep an eye on it though and see what happens.

Here is a much better photo. The brown colouring you can see is much worse further down into the growth. But it is not wet and doesn't appear to smell. I would have thought this must be some form of rot. Or is it just water markings that won't necessarily spread.


Thanks David, that is a MUCH better picture. I am 99% sure you do NOT have rot. It is most likely mechanical damage from dirt or water getting in there. Is that an old spike I see? Then this is consistent with a couple of my previously bloomed multis. I think debris gets trapped in there and the spike rubs it into the leaf making a brown spot. I'll go get my camera and take a couple of pics of mine.

hmmm....
i dunno about crown rot but erwinia smells terrible!

Crown rot smells just as bad.

OK here are a couple of pics. I have 4 multis that have this "post bloom brown stuff" in the crown. All four are healthy and the brown stuff appears to be just mechanical or cosmetic. Never spreads.

kolopakingii var. topperii:

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/4796/20070115image0001vd2.th.jpg (http://img378.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20070115image0001vd2.jpg)

parishii: on this one you can see the short leaf that usually comes out before a sheath has completely browned and died. I was worried about this one, but it seems to be fine.

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/324/20070115image0005px6.th.jpg (http://img378.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20070115image0005px6.jpg)

The same thing happened on my roth 'Rex' x 'MM', and on that plant I tugged on the remainder of the old spike and it came out along with the browned short leaf. It is also fine. My Paph Taiwan also has similar brown stuff on a previosly bloomed growth.

Teresa, I too have seen that on my older bloomed growths and that is pretty normal. They eventually die off.

It hasn't flowered yet Theresa. Initially when I saw this dark colouring in the crown I got excited as I thought it was sending up a bud.

I know what you mean by the "post bloom brown stuff". I think mine is a little worse than that though.

Thanks for the photos.

David

I came across this information From CLOUD"S ORCHIDS, by chance. I am very impressed with the thorough explanation so I quote it here for your reading:

Q: I have a terrible problem with crown rot in my orchid collection, any suggestions ?
A: I hope that I can offer some food for thought, if not the direct cause of your dilemma. I believe everyone, at some time, has had problems with crown rot. Some paphs are particularly susceptible since many have very tight crowns, making for the perfect environment for crown rot. Anyone who claims to have never encountered crown rot is simply not being honest, and wants to portray a savvy that is not merited !
There are many possible causes for crown rot to occur :
1) water : I have found that tap water can lead to crown rot because of the salts which accumulate in the crown. You may be using a towel to soak up excess water, but if you're using tap-water exclusively, then there will always be some which manages to find its way deep into the crown where you can't reach it.
2) fertilizer and other chemicals : Much like tap-water, these substances can accumulate in the crown, just beyond reach. As their concentrations increase, their toxicity increases and will kill the crown, which then leads to rot.
3) temperature : Cool temperatures and water will kill the crown and lead to crown rot. It sounds like your temperature range is okay, but be sure to water only in the morning so that there is plenty of time for the plants to dry off.
4) water temperature : If the water used is too cool, it can have the same effect as growing under too cool conditions, regardless of what the room temperature is.
5) inadequate drainage : If the humidity is very high, especially in smaller enclosed spaces, moisture around the roots in addition to some in the crown will lead to crown rot. Contrary to most beliefs, paphs do like to approach dryness between waterings. I tend to use a coarse mix, particularly for larger plants. I always underpot as well. This provides a fast-draining and quick-drying potting mix. I find that under these conditions, even moisture in the crown will not be a problem as the plant actually seems to absorb it from there if the roots are somewhat dry.
6) inadequate light : If the plants are grown too shady, then this coupled with moisture can lead to crown rot.
7) slow growth : Many of the plants which succumb seem to be the slower growers. This could be that all the factors I have listed will weaken the crown, and lead to its eventual demise. The key is to keep all conditions optimal for growth, hence you will always keep new leaves coming out of the crown and crown rot will diminish markedly.
8) air movement : This is probably the most important factor. All too often, the need for air movement is underestimated. Air movement from several sources can greatly improve plant growth and performance. An overhead fan is good, but perhaps an oscillating fan at plant height, might make all the difference. I do not think it is possible to have TOO much air movement for orchids. When you come to see my setup, you'll see what I mean ! If this is not feasible, then perhaps just some supplementary air movement on the days that you water. There is nothing wrong with having a fan blowing directly on your plants, or across the tops of the leaves. This will dry them off faster, and promote healthier growth.

From the look of the picture, I agree with other SOF experts that it is not crown rot. However, this look likes some sort of rust, look at your picture, the new growth behind has the same color on the outside of the leaf base.

Have you tried cinnamon? I have found that it is very effective for stopping and limiting the spread of brown spots.

It is sad to see a growth not thrive after all that time spent growing, but your plant looks not too bad to me, like it will recover even if the main growth dies back...

Best,
Justin

I use cinnamon to scent my GH too! It also is a nice dressing for paph snacks! Just Kidding!

I have put some cimmamon on. I will see how that works.

Here is a current photo. You can see the brown in the crown of the main growth as well as the small lead. Both of these growths are no longer growing. At the base of the main growth you can see a small lead starting to develop. Fingers crossed that this growth will develop successfully. I'm not all that optimistic though.

David


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/emydura/eagle.jpg

I hope it recovers! I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.:fcrossed:

keep putting cinnamon on the brown spots and i also hope it pulls through.
j.

Like Teresa has mentioned, I like to dry plant well, and apply cinnamin right on the rot area. Be careful if deep not to get cinnamin on roots, they do not seem to like it, just the effected area.
I was able to check my M.K. doing this and it seems fine.:cool:

John