Please Email me : yijiawang2005@gmail.com
or MSN : shouyinji@hotmail.com

Oooooooh I want some!!!!! But unfortunately I don't think our quarantine laws would allow me to have it.

Well good luck to anyone who gets it.......I am dying to get a few of these.

I sent you an email, I need more tigrinum in my collection. :whoo:

PM sent

Bolero, check out appendix A of the Quarantine Proclamation Act :)

Scary thing here is that, as with everything else, the right hand of Government doesn't know what the left hand is doing. I asked Customs how they handled this and given that Paphipedilum "Plants" are schedule two and Orchids seeds are microscopic how they could possibly hope to properly identify which genera and species a seed belonged to.

I got the basic and expected government stonewalling. It's quite possible a government lackey out there somewhere will be responsible for making one or more species extinct simply because the "rules" state they have to destroy the material someone has tried to import without the right ^*%%( paperwork.


Cheers all
Stephan

Oooooooh I want some!!!!! But unfortunately I don't think our quarantine laws would allow me to have it.

Well good luck to anyone who gets it.......I am dying to get a few of these.

Darren.
-Consider this, Do you know that we breath so much dust from mongolia desert. (supposedly you could see this from space)
-Scientists measure pollen in the polar ice cap.
DOES THE BIG BROTHER HAS A GIANT VACUUM OR AIR CLEANER TO QUARANTINE THE ZILLION OVER ZILLION POLLENS THAT GET TO AUSTRALIA BY ATMOSPHERIC AIR CURRENT:p

PM sent

Bolero, check out appendix A of the Quarantine Proclamation Act :)

Scary thing here is that, as with everything else, the right hand of Government doesn't know what the left hand is doing. I asked Customs how they handled this and given that Paphipedilum "Plants" are schedule two and Orchids seeds are microscopic how they could possibly hope to properly identify which genera and species a seed belonged to.

I got the basic and expected government stonewalling. It's quite possible a government lackey out there somewhere will be responsible for making one or more species extinct simply because the "rules" state they have to destroy the material someone has tried to import without the right ^*%%( paperwork.


Cheers all
Stephan

Stephan, lucky for humankind that the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing, and vice versa.
I urge you to watch the 2 movies 1984 or Brazil (quite intersting)
I heard that Singapore becomes so modern that anyone movement can be monitored by the state just from using the transport system that unlikely that anyone can muster a crowd for demonstration.
I also saw recently on TV that England starts to install the cameras and tell peoples by speakers on the streets if they jay walking, park the bicycle in the wrong place etc..Some peoples think it is amusing. It scared the hell out of me.
If I remember my architectural class correctly, they invent the vista focal point with whole buch of roads convert to a point in Europe, has less with the vista we think nowadays, but to easily round up the mobs and shoot them down.
And if George has his way, he would probably want to know when anyone in the US is going to the boys' or girls' room.
Every night, before going to bed I pray God for the two hands to never meet.:p

Widh I would know what to do with it. And if I could have it in the US. I am so very new to orchids and hope to learn alot on here.
Dawn

Welcome dawn! :welcome:

I urge you to watch the 2 movies 1984 or Brazil (quite intersting)


Forget the movie, read the book! George Orwell was one of the greatest authors of the 20th century. 1984 is my favorite book in the entire world!:)

Hi Dawn,

:welcomesof: Thanks for joining and please don't hesitate to ask any questions, we're a helpful bunch!:D

Why would seeds be illegal?

I contacted this person. He wanted to sell the plant with the seed pod and one immature growth. I asked about seed once the pod opened.

Forget the movie, read the book! George Orwell was one of the greatest authors of the 20th century. 1984 is my favorite book in the entire world!:)

Thanks for the recommendation Adam. It will be on my to read list.

Steven, you mean you get two birds with one stone, the seeds and the plant also? Hopefully the pollens are from another plant, this way you get more variation in the result seedlings.

Why would seeds be illegal?

I contacted this person. He wanted to sell the plant with the seed pod and one immature growth. I asked about seed once the pod opened.

I think CITES prohibits importation of paph seed to the US...someone correct me if I am wrong.

Steven, you mean you get two birds with one stone, the seeds and the plant also? Hopefully the pollens are from another plant, this way you get more variation in the result seedlings.

I am almost certain that it was cross pollenated. I was told the plant was collected.

Why would seed be restricted. Do they chech every envelope that comes in?

I am almost certain that it was cross pollenated. I was told the plant was collected.

Why would seed be restricted. Do they chech every envelope that comes in?

Well for sure getting the paph from China is illegal according to CITES. I think that seed from any Appendix I plant is also illegal to import. I don't know if they check every envelope that comes in...and I don't want to find out the hard way!

I believe under CITES, getting paph seeds from any country is illegal without annoying paperwork. I can't even get seeds from USA legally or at least the seed banks refuse to send them here. However they don't check the envelopes so it is easy to smuggle, so I have no clue why seed banks follow these silly regulations.

...However they don't check the envelopes so it is easy to smuggle...

It's also easy for authorities to read posts on the Internet. Although I am *sure* you are speaking hypothetically. ;)

It's also easy for authorities to read posts on the Internet. Although I am *sure* you are speaking hypothetically. ;)

I see what you mean Teresa.
http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/21/news/international/pluggedin_fortune/

Where Cites is concerned, at least in Australia (and I don't really care who reads this), the interpretation is that no "identifiable" part of a schedule one plant or plant thus identified may be imported without the proper documentation and checks.

More often than not the plant dies before it reaches the hands of the qualified owner from those of the uneducated government officials.

In Australia there is another Act (the one I referred Bolero to) which relates to Weed control and control/quarantine around plant seeds. It has nothing to do with CITES per se. In it, it clearly states that a person (Australian) is able to import the "seeds" of a number of different plants included in an appendix.

Amongst the plants listed is Paphiopedilum spp. There is no text in this Act which defers to CITES and I defy anyone to tell me, without a microscope (sometimes an electron one), which plant an orchid seed came from. Therefore it IS NOT a recognisable part of a schedule one plant as defined in CITES.

A seedpod unfortunately, is.

I've had to tell Iiya this.

Cheers
Stephan

Where Cites is concerned, at least in Australia (and I don't really care who reads this), the interpretation is that no "identifiable" part of a schedule one plant or plant thus identified may be imported without the proper documentation and checks.

More often than not the plant dies before it reaches the hands of the qualified owner from those of the uneducated government officials.

In Australia there is another Act (the one I referred Bolero to) which relates to Weed control and control/quarantine around plant seeds. It has nothing to do with CITES per se. In it, it clearly states that a person (Australian) is able to import the "seeds" of a number of different plants included in an appendix.

Amongst the plants listed is Paphiopedilum spp. There is no text in this Act which defers to CITES and I defy anyone to tell me, without a microscope (sometimes an electron one), which plant an orchid seed came from. Therefore it IS NOT a recognisable part of a schedule one plant as defined in CITES.

A seedpod unfortunately, is.

I've had to tell Iiya this.

Cheers
Stephan

So The first rule says one can not get any thing recognizable in.
But the second act allows one to import seeds including the paph species from appendix I (as long as they are not in the seed pod, which is recognizable). I did not see any contradiction in the two rules.
Sounds like they are willing to let you have a mean to propagate the plant from seeds (without import the plant)
That is very nice.

Hi Hien

Yep, on paper at least, we can import seeds.

A friend of mine receives some on a regular basis.

Yiya is asking a reasonably exhorbitant price for one growth and a seed pod but isn't quite geared for dry seed and has asked me to quote what I believe is a reasonable price for that. While I could quote a figure I am still left with the problem of at least 5 years of growth before I see if I got what I paid for. There's the additional problem of contamination where dry seed is concerned. I'm still considering my options.

Cheers
Stephan

Sorry, don't mean to be too strong about this, but aren't there other considerations rather than monetary and legal ones? This person has admitted it is a collected plant. Is that a good thing? Should we support such "business"? If the seed can't be identified, does that make it OK to send just because no one will the wiser?

Furthermore, there is a willingness here to export it over international borders against a treaty agreement. Am I the only one who's smelling a bad fish here? Sorry for my outburst...

Sorry, don't mean to be too strong about this, but aren't there other considerations rather than monetary and legal ones? This person has admitted it is a collected plant. Is that a good thing? Should we support such "business"? If the seed can't be identified, does that make it OK to send just because no one will the wiser?

Furthermore, there is a willingness here to export it over international borders against a treaty agreement. Am I the only one who's smelling a bad fish here? Sorry for my outburst...

I agree completely, that's why I decided not to buy it after I received the email from him. I can wait until mine flowers and harvest my own seed.

I totally agree with what Tom said, something smells really very fishy here, so to protect the forum this thread is now closed!

Ok, I'm now re-opening this thread but just for the record, we do not encourage any kind of illegal activities. Thanks!

Thank you. I think open discussion of these sorts of things bring more people in line with what is legal and not legal. I learned several significant things from this discussion. It may have prevented me and several others from making a serious mistake.

Sorry, don't mean to be too strong about this, but aren't there other considerations rather than monetary and legal ones? This person has admitted it is a collected plant. Is that a good thing? Should we support such "business"? If the seed can't be identified, does that make it OK to send just because no one will the wiser?

Furthermore, there is a willingness here to export it over international borders against a treaty agreement. Am I the only one who's smelling a bad fish here? Sorry for my outburst...

Sorry, I missed the part where the seller admitted it was a collected plant. That is definitely a no-no. I agree with what Tom said, and that is just one more reason not buy this plant or seed even if you can receive it through the mail.

There are reputable vendors in the US that have tigrinum!

Sorry, don't mean to be too strong about this, but aren't there other considerations rather than monetary and legal ones? This person has admitted it is a collected plant. Is that a good thing? Should we support such "business"? If the seed can't be identified, does that make it OK to send just because no one will the wiser?

Furthermore, there is a willingness here to export it over international borders against a treaty agreement. Am I the only one who's smelling a bad fish here? Sorry for my outburst...

I totally agree with Mr. Tom here. I was trying to find a tactful and uninflammatory way of saying what you just did. Thank you.

Warning:

Any member knowingly offers illegally collected wild plants to other SOF members here on the SOF will get permanently banned from the forum without any warning and explanation!

Oops

Thanks for pointing that out Tom - I missed it as well.

Dreams and schemes have been placed on hold.

There's got to be one here in Australia somewhere.

Cheers
Stephan

:iagree: with what Tom said.

I agree with what Tom said, and thanks for saying it. Jim.

I missed the part of the money exchange. I thought this is giving or/and swapping seeds, plants.
My big vacuum cleaner joke (has to do with Australian quarantine regarding disease & weed control..not about cites) If you find it disrespectfull & not funny, I am sorry.

I reread the posts.
I understand Tom's sentimental & also what Peter mentioned of the rule.

However, before we become very upset with Yijia (maybe, he errs in offering the seeds for the exchange of money with american members).
We have to understand "that maybe" , because it is not illegal to collect, sell & buy plants in China or Vietnam.
From what I read in vietnamese forums, peoples collect, sell , buy & grow wild plants as normal transactions, not a big deal over there (it is different from , say we are going into Yellow Stone National Park and come out with some plants in the USA)
I requote what Kim Post on another thread:

At the Slipper Forum in DC in February, Mr. Gunzenhauser showed slides from his trip to Vietnam. He saw numerous roadside stalls selling orchids. The slippers (hangianum, etc.) were lying on bamboo tables, and in many cases rotting. When he asked one vendor what they do with those plants, he was told that they just throw them away, and go collect some more.

Also, from what I understand of Stephan's post, Australian law does not forbid bringing seeds into the country (regardless of the sources of the parent plants)
Similarly CITES permits seedlings raised artificiallly in flasks (regargless the sources of the parent plants also) Otherwise , we can not explain the plentiful availability of the so called endangered species in European countries, Asian countries, in fact even in Canada, our next door neighbor.
Also if you read Yijia new post today, he mentions that the tigrinum site is destroyed by flooding the site for electric dam. So in this case, should we not create more plants to reintroduce to the neighboring sites of the original situ.

Also if you read Yijia new post today, he mentions that the tigrinum site is destroyed by flooding the site for electric dam. So in this case, should we not create more plants to reintroduce to the neighboring sites of the original situ.

Certainly if the plant is "rescued" legally from the wild, I don't see a problem. Especially if intentions are to propogate the plant in order to conseve the species. But naturally the plant cannot come to the US legally without loads of paperwork through CITES.

I think many are aware that collection is legal in many other countries...but that doesn't make it the right thing to do. Certainly we can't stop people from doing it, and I understand that they are just trying to put food on the table in many cases. It boils down to supply and demand. When people buy a collected plant they create a demand for plants, and the supply will always rise to meet the demand. If no one demanded collected plants, then eventually there would be no need to supply them.

Teresa

I came across the information for the rescue effort for paph tigrinum somewhere also.
Someone is actually producing lots of seeds for the reintroduction effort right now. Wish I remember who it is.

Steve Toplez (sp?) was the one who was talking about reintroducing tigrinum to the wild. His web site, and the 'paphiopedia' are down. I have not heard a peep from him in some time (maybe a year). Maybe he is out of orchids?

As for this seed debate. I think its hard to punish someone on this forum for doing things that are legal and common in their own countries. Not every culture/country has the same values as us. I think instead of a banning, a warning is better. Explain that in the US, wild plants are not allowed without permits. I think a memeber who has access to the sites in the wild is a valuable member.

Kyle

As for this seed debate. I think its hard to punish someone on this forum for doing things that are legal and common in their own countries. Not every culture/country has the same values as us. I think instead of a banning, a warning is better. Explain that in the US, wild plants are not allowed without permits. I think a memeber who has access to the sites in the wild is a valuable member.



Yijia has not been banned, and there is no indication from his post that he is attempting anything illegal. Some people forget that this forum is worldwide, and there may be another forum member in China (or other country besides the US) who can legally help Yijia with his propogation wishes for tigrinum.

There has been some cofusion...some people are not aware of CITES laws because they are new growers. I know I was totally ignorant about CITES when I first started growing orchids. I have learned about the law through forums like this one. That's one reason this thread was left open, and people can learn alot from explanations shared here. :D Peter posted a warning about illegal activities. I don't think he meant to point any fingers at a specific person, but meant it just as a general warning.

Yijia has not been banned, and there is no indication from his post that he is attempting anything illegal. Some people forget that this forum is worldwide, and there may be another forum member in China (or other country besides the US) who can legally help Yijia with his propogation wishes for tigrinum.


I understand he hasn't been banned, but Peters post of "Warning:
Any member knowingly offers illegally collected wild plants to other SOF members here on the SOF will get permanently banned from the forum without any warning and explanation!" is a little concerning. Its grey area.

Kyle

I understand he hasn't been banned, but Peters post of "Warning:
Any member knowingly offers illegally collected wild plants to other SOF members here on the SOF will get permanently banned from the forum without any warning and explanation!" is a little concerning. Its grey area.


Do you have a suggestion to make it less of a grey area? I'm being serious, as a moderator I would like to know what members expect. There has been one case already where an SOF member sent illegal wild collected plants to another member. The member reported the incident to Peter and Peter banned him for using the SOF to conduct illegal activity. In this case I don't see any grey areas, but maybe I am missing something.

I understand he hasn't been banned, but Peters post of "Warning:
Any member knowingly offers illegally collected wild plants to other SOF members here on the SOF will get permanently banned from the forum without any warning and explanation!" is a little concerning. Its grey area.

Kyle

OK Kyle, my warning is quite clear. When people get banned, there is always a very good reason, so let's not turn this thread into why members should or shouldn't get banned! I have already banned one member for knowingly sending illegal plants to another member and I will not let that happen again!