Gang, I've got 4 or 5 paphs I'm seriously getting ready to throw out. I have a sinking feeling they're diseased, and I have a sinking feeling that it's the same disease I got a year and a half ago and, mistakenly, tried to treat rather than throwing out the plants. It appears to have spread. Please take a look at these photos and see if you agree.

Just fyi, I don't overfertilizer, use Jack's, every few months use cal-mag, every few months use epsom. I do use tap water, which means around 175ppm and 7.8pH - though I only have a handful of plants with this problem, they're ALL paphs, and all were near each other when they got it.

Paph Dollgoldi - same plant, 3 views - note the discoloration at the base of the plant, the whitening, and the leaves turning white

http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/2976/dollgoldi1tw8.th.jpg (http://img488.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dollgoldi1tw8.jpg)

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/5283/dollgoldi2vt7.th.jpg (http://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dollgoldi2vt7.jpg)

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/4149/dollgoldi3kt0.th.jpg (http://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dollgoldi3kt0.jpg)

Wilhelminae - some kind of rusty thing under the leaves and pocking on top

http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/6390/wilhelm1yn2.th.jpg (http://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wilhelm1yn2.jpg)

http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/4697/wilhelm2je3.th.jpg (http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wilhelm2je3.jpg)

Skip Bartlett cross - same thing as dollgoldi, plant going white on leaves and at base

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/2954/skip1lt0.th.jpg (http://img57.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skip1lt0.jpg)

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7519/skip2ok7.th.jpg (http://img57.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skip2ok7.jpg)

Venustum album - same problem with whitening at base of plant, also noticed a white dot on one of the leaves - this is how the trouble started 2 years ago, the weird whitening at the base

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3070/venustum1pw7.th.jpg (http://img509.imageshack.us/my.php?image=venustum1pw7.jpg)

So please, advice - do I just check these 4 in the garbage? I'm especially bummed about the dollgoldi, but it's been like this for 1.5 years and not getting better. Oh, and I've treated everything with physan and phyton, and probably orthonex too over the last several months. Thanks, JOHN

Hi John,

Those plants sure don't look vey happy and if they haven't improved over the years, then personally, I would replace them all or at least isolate them and see what happens. But you said they have not improved, so I really don't know.:confused: They may be just too weak plants to recover and may eventually die.

Wow that is bizarre...the whitening. I am truly stumped there. If it is spreading I would isolate them or get rid of them.

The wilhelminae looks like classic spider mite damage to me...at least that is what *my* spider mite infestations looked like. The plant just continues to look like crap after the mites are dead, but new growths should develop normally.

I think Teresa is correct - spider mites - the damaged tissue stays as this - wait for new growths - hopefully there no mites left - wipe off the leaves with wet cotton to see if there's any left

Hi John,

The "whitening" you refer to at the base of the growths may be chlorosis caused by some sort of chemical exposure. My experience with Physan in the past is that it can be very phytotoxic to slipper orchids in relatively small quantities (eg. 5 % solution) - especially seedlings. I no longer use it to spray plants or to soak them when I suspect there could be mold or fungal problems - I just repot them and put them in an area of higher humidity and air movement, and try to reduce the frequency of watering somewhat. Also, I have seen this kind of problem when fertilizer - especially high concentrations of it -stay pooled in the leaf axil for a period of time (like overnight).

I would not throw the plants out, but unpot them, soak them in R/O or distilled water for an hour, repot them in fresh mix in a clean pot, and then dryn them off as above. As far as red spider mites, the easiest way to determine whether you have them is to rub a clean white handkerchief over the leaves - then see if your handkerchief has a pink color to it. If it does, you have spider mites. There are a lot of sprays out there for mites, but anything with Pentac in it is the best. You can also use a low power microscope to see the little buggers.

Hope this helps!

Best Regards,

Tom

I agree with Teresa, Uri & Tom
Do not throw away the plants.
1)They look like they are injured by mites. this you could separate the plants from the rest. wash them weekly.

2) But calcium excess also interferres with other mineral uptakes, excess can create exact the symptom of browning & chlorosis as obserbed by Tom.
Look like you are using semihydroponic, with tap water (which has calcium & chlorine) you also supplement calcium!! when the water evaporated, the bottom water becomes more concentrated of mineral. I believe his suggestion of soaking the plants in distilled water, and using distilled water more or slowdown on your supplement will help.
to green up your plants instantly use this product. My phals actually dark green in less than hour. This stuff smell terribly thought.
Metanaturals Organic Nitrogen

Ok, I unpotted these guys and they were all severally underwatered - other than the semi-hydro guy, of course. Dry as a bone, though good roots, which makes me think chemicals/nutrients could be the problem - concentration at the roots, etc. I've got them soaking in distilled, and I'm going to finish moving these guys over to semi-hydro - the reason I started moving my other paphs there was exactly this, to help me keep the moisture more regular. And I did use physan and/or phyton on all of these quite recently - when I moved them in for the fall. It's possible I only added to the perceived problem. Also, I did the cloth wipe on the leaves, no red spots or anything else, so I'm doubting mites. Man, maybe I overdoased them. Soaking them now in distilled.

Good luck, John and do keep us posted!

I will, and very much appreciate the advice. Tom, you just lost yourself a sale - I was going to buy a new Wilhelminae and Venustum when I"m back in town in a week LOL Though I suspect I'll find something else worth buying :-)

Hi John,

Sounds like you're on the right track, and glad to hear your going to stop by to visit us soon! SOF member's visits are always a special occasion at Fox Valley.

Thanks, Tom

You may want to look at the www.bigleaforchids.com forum and do a search for mites. What many people misidentify as fungus, bacteria, virus; is actually a serious mite infestation. The Tetrasan product mentioned will do a great, safe job of eliminating mites.

Also, many folks rountinely use Physan 20 and Phyton if they aren't sure what else to use. Based on some threads, some folks don't know the difference between them. Both of these are fairly potent fungicides each carrying a DANGER designation (the highest level of risk designated by the EPA) as a hazard to the end user. Both are capable of doing a lot of damage to young, tender orchid seedlings.

Ken Brewer

Hi John, This looks very much like frustrating disease that has killed over 1/3 of my paph collection. I posted originally 6/12/06 with photos of paph. damage. Symptoms for me have been: often starts with small black line on top of leaf vein; pitting on leaves; leaves yellow then turn brown; spreads to base with rusty brown color; yellow/white patches on tops of leaves. Has effected both seedlings and mature plants. Plants die slowly, losing one leaf at a time.

I have "narrowed" it down to:
1) mites?- no red specks or webs but typical pitting on leaves - treated with Kelthane.
2) thrips? - some similarity to thrip damage in photos posted by Heather. Treated with Bayers
3) High light? - grow on shaded patio, low light. This is the first and only problem I've had with Paphs in 3 years, don't believe light issue.
4) Physan overload? - Possibly, have read other posts citing this possibility
5) Fungal following insects? - Possibly
6) Bacterial? - Believe not, not wet/odor
7) Over/under fertilizer or lack trace elements? - Use MSU fert. sparingly with RO water
8) Root rot? - have repotted all, roots are not great but OK
9) Chemical overload? - Possibly, I've thrown everything in the book at them
10) Rust? the dreaded rust Lance Burke wrote of

I'm at a loss. Segregated paphs. are doing well. Those effected with this 'disease' are slowly dying, still don't know what I'm dealing with.

Carol, can you post some photos of your plants' symptoms?

I've repotted mine after soaking them in distilled water, but they are staying in quarantine indefinitely. I just don't trust this thing, and there's been too much of a coincidence that plants near each other seem to have it. I'm getting the miticide and will try that, and a part of me does wonder about over-doping with physan, but still, plants near each other are the ones who got this, I'm just very suspicious. Well, time will tell, if it continues with the new leaves, I probably will just chuck the plants and not risk it spreading any further.

Here is Carol's original post with photos. (http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5880)

I think it could possibly be the plant's reaction to many different chemicals. I have just recently over treated some of mine with merit pesticide and caused some white blanching. One of my paphs is *really* bad. It had a severe mite infestation and I treated it with more pesticides than any of my other paphs and it has just about killed the plant. The leaves are wrinkled and dried, greenish yellow with blanched white spots. That is in addition to the nasty mite damage. This paph looks like total crap now. But I think it will live. I will post a picture later when I get a chance.

John and Teresa,

I've repotted all sick plants and discontinued chems but can't halt this, leaves continue to yellow then die. Teresa, your photos of blanching are what I see on top of my paph. leaves. I did treat with Bayer product (Merit) in late summer (heat) - possible cause? Doesn't explain rusty brown that settles into base of leaves/crown. I too will post some more pics when I get a chance.

John and Teresa,

I've repotted all sick plants and discontinued chems but can't halt this, leaves continue to yellow then die. Teresa, your photos of blanching are what I see on top of my paph. leaves. I did treat with Bayer product (Merit) in late summer (heat) - possible cause? Doesn't explain rusty brown that settles into base of leaves/crown. I too will post some more pics when I get a chance.

Carol,

The leaves on my way over-treated paph have continued to shrivel and die as well. AND it has some rust brown splotches. Not just on the base but throughout the leaves. BUT new growths have come out normal and are now growing normally. I think I have set the plant way back but it will live. The paphs with the spotted blanching were not treated as many times as the one paph I had with a severe infestation, so they are not as damaged. I will post photos tomorrow of the really damaged paph. It's too dark now and it's outside.

I think I have a similar problem. Never would of suspected mites. Rusty

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c308/palestyet/ca019.jpg

I think I have a similar problem. Never would of suspected mites.

Have you treated with a pesticide?

Have you wiped the underside of the leaves with a white tissue to see if any brownish red coloring comes off?

Looks like typical mite damage to me. I hate those boogers!:mad:

Teresa,
I ordered Tetrasan a few minutes ago, and I plan on treating the plants ASAP. I plan on useing 1/4 teaspoon per gallon. I feel relieved I know know the cause of my problem. Thanks for everyone's help. Rusty

Rusty, I believe that you are on the right track with Tetrasan. This looks like typical mite damage to me. Two spotted mite causes yellowing ans streaking along with darkening of the leaf base. The typical webbing is not present with this species and they do a lot more damage to the plant than red spider mite. The Tetrasan should do the trick.
Dean

Dean, Any suggetions on how to apply the Tetrasan? Do I spray both the top and bottom of the leaves? What about spraying the potting medium and non-effected plants? How many applications? Thank for your time. Rusty

OK Warning: these pics are indicative of severe paph abuse. Beware what chemicals such as Merit can do when not used properly. :embarass: I feel embarassed, but I have learned my lesson. Hopefully these photos will help someone else not make the same mistake. This is a Paph Gaulois. It had a prett advanced spider mite infestation. I applied Merit (Bayer Rose and Flower) three times: once a week for 3 weeks. Then I waited a month and I repeated the process with a different chemical (Ortho Rose and Flower). Too many chemicals and this is what happens:

Whole plant:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a93/tdrollo/2006_1115Image0007.jpg

Top of leaves:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a93/tdrollo/2006_1115Image0010.jpg

Older leaves, dried up and dying:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a93/tdrollo/2006_1115Image0011.jpg

Underside of leaves:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a93/tdrollo/2006_1115Image0013.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a93/tdrollo/2006_1115Image0015.jpg

New leaf (normal) compared to an old leaf:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a93/tdrollo/2006_1115Image0018.jpg

Wow, okay this has gotten quite fascinating. Hey, so what is the final suggestion how how to use the Tetrasan? I bought it as well, should be arriving soon. From what I've read, you only use it once? Do you need to be careful to spray top and bottom of leaves? Do you need to soak the medium too?

I thought that you could use predator mites to control spider mites.
The only thing is once the spider mites are gone, there goes the food source for predator mites, they will be gone too.

I have never used Tetrasan, but I am also curious to how it is applied.

Hien, I have never tried predator mites. I have used predator wasps to control flies at a barn where I kept my horse. They did work very well, and they were sterile so could not multiply. I had to re-introduce them every few months to keep them working. It was a bit of a pain, but nice to not have to worry about chemicals.

The problem with this past Summer in San Antonio was that we had a massive drought. Everything was unbalanced and some populations of insects swelled to almost uncontollable numbers. Spider mites, thrips, scale. I didn't realize my plants were infected until it was pretty widespread and then I panicked and just ran to the store to get something and be done with it. I did read the instructions and I applied for "severe infestation" which now in retrospect I don't think my infestation was that severe. Also I think for delicate plants like slipper orchids one should probably apply the least amount of chemical that will be effective according to the instructions rather than the strongest application. I should have waited to see if a weaker application would work first before I went crazy with the maximum dose.

You can see in my photos the pocking on the top of the leaves from the mites...it is so little in comparison to the big brown blotches that the chemical caused. I have a couple of other plants with mite damage if anyone wants to see photos.

I'd like to make a few suggestions. First of all, EVERYONE PLEASE BE CAREFUL WITH THE CHEMICALS! I have fallen victim to overusing various fungicides, insecticides, fertilizers and got caught up in the circle of "oh now this symptom is present, what disease/deficiency/pest do I have and what chemical should I use?" I thought at one point I had a massive plague that ended up wiping out hundreds of my paphs, only later to have it happily "go away" after I stopped ALL chemical treatments and fertilization for several weeks. I can't stress this enough. I thought I had every form of rot/chemical deficiency in the book, used Physan and Phyton, tried every fertilizer/supplement out there and ended up killing tons of plants.
Learn how to read your plants and give them what only they ask for, nutrient-wise. A healthy plant with good roots growing in a relatively clean environment that is provided with just the basics such as proper humidity, temperature, water, air movement, and occasional (i.e. 1/8th strength MSU once every 3 weeks) will stay healthy and will be almost bullet-proof. I think the problem most people (myself included) run into is beating the crap out of their otherwise perfectly healthy plants with all kinds of unnatural (and unnecessary) chemicals which they think are helping/preventing, but ultimately the chemicals weaken the plants or even kill off leaf/root tissue and make the plants HUGE targets for infections. Think of it like the lions hunting the zebras on the nature shows. Notice how they always go after the weak animals? Same thing with our paphs and the fungi/bacteria that try to feed on them.
I second the idea of using predatory mites. Another thing that will help is raising the humidity and lowering the temperature. This interrupts the bad mites' ability to reproduce/thrive (they love hot, dry conditions) and encourages the benificial mites to thrive. Just be careful not to overdo it - fungi also like low temperatures and high humidity. Keep the air moving CONSTANTLY and you'll be alright.

I thought that you could use predator mites to control spider mites....

info from a beneficial supplier. has some control stuff at the bottom. (click me for spider mite info...) (http://greenmethods.com/incl_pages/bb_spidermites.php)

only thing i'd add to the above is don't overuse pesticides as that'll lead to resistance which will make your pesticides ineffective...

The problem is that most people who have not been growing for that long, do not know how to "read their plants." Just simply telling a novice to read their plants won't really help them immediately without telling them what they are looking for. I believe reading your plants is something that comes with experience over time. I've been growing orchids for about 3 years and I have learned many lessons along the way. I try not to make the same mistakes twice, but without the mistakes, I would not have known the difference. And definitely paying attention to what is going on with your plants is a VERY useful tool.

I do know what mites and scale look like and I knew what my problem was from the get go. I grow outside pretty much all year. The drought this Summer had temps up to 110, often with humidity below 50%. This was party time for mites. This was my first experience using this particular chemical, and now I have learned a lesson in reading my plants. I didn't initially want to post these pictures because I was embarassed at my folly. But when I saw that others were having similar issues I thought it could be useful information for everyone, and I want people who are having the same problems to know they are not alone and sometimes you have to learn the hard way.:rolleyes:

Hi Chris/ Teresa,

I agree with both of your comments. Chemical treatment is always the last option, after all the environemntal causes have been eliminated. Even then, the dosage should be carefully evaluated before application. Unfortunately, many of the chemicals out there are used primarily for plants other than orchids. As a result, there isn't a whole lot of information regarding orchid phytotoxicity. This stands to reason, because it takes a lot of money for a chemical company to get a particular chemical approved for use for a particular genus/family, etc. of plants. Unfortunately, there is just not enough volume of business for a chemical company to pay the money to have orchid use certification, so they don't do it. Roses, on the other hand get all kinds of certification because they are so universally grown.

Teresa, I am amazed that you have only been into lady's slippers for three years! This statement just goes to show how much more information is available to collectors today than when I was just entering the field (along with Karl Linnaeus). I think you have successfully condensed years of learning into a short period of time. As for me, I've made the same mistake at least four times in the last forty years. The same one!! But as long as there are people like Peter around to bring us together, I think the future is bright.
We all learn from each other as long as we're not too proud to seek advice.

Best Regards,

Tom

Well my last post wasn't meant to be insulting or condescending to any newer growers, nor was I trying to disprove any others' prognoses, so maybe I'll just summarize what I meant to say and leave it alone. "Reading your plants" isn't hard (and yes it does come with time and through asking questions), but as humans often do with many things, we tend to overcomplicate things. My last post stated the basics (don't forget proper light) that paphs need. Maybe I should have said that before people rush to use this chemical or that fertilizer supplement that they first make sure the basics are all in harmony. Keep the basics in line and most problems can be avoided altogether.

Well my last post wasn't meant to be insulting or condescending to any newer growers, nor was I trying to disprove any others' prognoses, so maybe I'll just summarize what I meant to say and leave it alone. "Reading your plants" isn't hard (and yes it does come with time and through asking questions), but as humans often do with many things, we tend to overcomplicate things. My last post stated the basics (don't forget proper light) that paphs need. Maybe I should have said that before people rush to use this chemical or that fertilizer supplement that they first make sure the basics are all in harmony. Keep the basics in line and most problems can be avoided altogether.


Oh I wasn't offended...I agree with what you said! I just don't want other people to feel ashamed like I did and be afraid to post photos of their blunders because we can all learn from them. Sometimes I feel like I should know better and be able to read my plants by now, yet I still manage to royally screw things up. :rolleyes:

Hi Chris/ Teresa,

I agree with both of your comments. Chemical treatment is always the last option, after all the environemntal causes have been eliminated. Even then, the dosage should be carefully evaluated before application. Unfortunately, many of the chemicals out there are used primarily for plants other than orchids. As a result, there isn't a whole lot of information regarding orchid phytotoxicity. This stands to reason, because it takes a lot of money for a chemical company to get a particular chemical approved for use for a particular genus/family, etc. of plants. Unfortunately, there is just not enough volume of business for a chemical company to pay the money to have orchid use certification, so they don't do it. Roses, on the other hand get all kinds of certification because they are so universally grown.

Teresa, I am amazed that you have only been into lady's slippers for three years! This statement just goes to show how much more information is available to collectors today than when I was just entering the field (along with Karl Linnaeus). I think you have successfully condensed years of learning into a short period of time. As for me, I've made the same mistake at least four times in the last forty years. The same one!! But as long as there are people like Peter around to bring us together, I think the future is bright.
We all learn from each other as long as we're not too proud to seek advice.

Best Regards,

Tom

Thanks for your comment Tom. Without the internet I would have definitely killed and maimed many more slippers before I figured out how to grow them. I love to do research and I have tried to take advantage of the information available. It's very hard to find pictures of slipper blunders on the internet. I think most people don't want to admit they have done something wrong for fear that someone will taunt them or look down upon them. But I feel pretty comfortable here at the SOF and I recently decided that I am just going to post my ugly photos and hope people still like me. ;) I definitely welcome all the advice that has been offered here.:D

What would be most helpful to new growers and "junior" (3 yrs) growers like myself, would be a single forum category of pest and disease PHOTOS showing symptoms and diagnosis. Photos of microscopic insects have not been helpful to me. Not one of the 5 orchid forums I read regularly have a collection of pest/disease photos that is maintained long term. Researching archives has been very helpful but often the photos have been deleted from age. Several members of this forum have posted photos of plant damage that have been invaluable in helping me to know what I'm dealing with. Some good websites, I have numerous bookmarked sites, but no single source. We could save all growes, and particularly new growers, time, money and frustration with such a tool.

What would be most helpful to new growers and "junior" (3 yrs) growers like myself, would be a single forum category of pest and disease PHOTOS showing symptoms and diagnosis. Photos of microscopic insects have not been helpful to me. Not one of the 5 orchid forums I read regularly have a collection of pest/disease photos that is maintained long term. Researching archives has been very helpful but often the photos have been deleted from age. Several members of this forum have posted photos of plant damage that have been invaluable in helping me to know what I'm dealing with. Some good websites, I have numerous bookmarked sites, but no single source. We could save all growes, and particularly new growers, time, money and frustration with such a tool.

What a great idea Carol...I think we might be able to come up with something.

*Teresa is off to PM Peter*

Great thread!

This past summer was just terrible for mites. The buggers decimated my plants but only got to some of my orchids, thankfully. The annoying thing about mites is that they are like fleas--you kill them but they come back in waves, twice as many two weeks later.

I had pretty good results with the Schultz housepant and garden (pyrethrine/oil) spray applied every few weeks. But with paphs it is best used sparingly and always being careful if growing under lights to avoid burn spots.

Justin

What a great idea Carol...I think we might be able to come up with something.

*Teresa is off to PM Peter*

We now have a new section for pests and diseases discussion. Thanks for the suggestion, Carol and Teresa! :D

...what is the final suggestion how how to use the Tetrasan? I bought it as well, should be arriving soon. From what I've read, you only use it once? Do you need to be careful to spray top and bottom of leaves? Do you need to soak the medium too?

the pesticide label is considered federal law so the pesticide must be used as directed.
as i also use it occasionally, it has translaminar activity (which means that the chemical penetrates the cuticle of the leaf and distributes itself throughout the leaf. that being said, proper application is still crucial, but if you happen to miss a small part, then it will probably cover it) and is kills nymphs and eggs on contact, too. it does not kill adults!!!

You have received a lot of good advice; it looks like mite damage it me . The original damage could have been increased by the use of Physan or Phyton. Both will cause leaf pathology but especially Physan. Paphs seem especially prone to physan damage. If you use Physan make it very dilute because it really only takes about 1/4 teaspoon per gallon to be very effective. For most applications it can be diluted to half of that. I recommend Tetrasan for mite control; much better than the old types like Kelthan and Pentac (if you can even find these now). Use Tetrasan at 1/4 teaspoon/gal for the granular or powdered form.
Dean