I'm confused about the naming ettiquette for newly awarded plants. Best way to explain is to use an example.

My Phrag wallisii is ('Tower Grove' HCC/AOS x 'Windy Hill')
So, if it were to win an AM/AOS, I would get to re-name it, is that true?
So, it would then be Phrag wallisii 'Whatever I choose' AM/AOS ('Tower Grove' HCC/AOS x 'Windy Hill') is that correct?

Thanks!

You can give it a clonal name now. Also, you don't have to include its parentage now either, even if it weren't awarded.

Also, it should have its clonal name before it goes in for judging. i.e. Phrag. wallisii 'Heather'. Then if it is awarded, you would tack on its award.

Oh really? I thought it had to be awarded to register a clonal name. I suppose I should think of one then. :lol:

Oh really? I thought it had to be awarded to register a clonal name. I suppose I should think of one then. :lol:

Nope, for example, one of the parents of your Phrag. wallisii is Phrag. wallisii 'Windy Hill'.

That's not an awarded clone. Many breeders/showers pick one clonal name and stick to it, this makes it easy to identify their plants. Windy Hill is Marilyn Ledoux. Of course, if you have multiple plants all different clones, you could give them each a completely different clonal name or number them, e.g. P. besseae 'Cow Hollow II' FCC/AOS. Cow Hollow was a clonal name used by Pui Chin and he just added numbers. There also exists a P. besseae 'Cow Hollow' which got either an AM/AOS or an FCC/AOS, i don't reember now. of cousre Cow Hollow II has become rather famous.

Yes, that's what I would like to do, come up w/ a clonal name that is MINE and makes my plants easily recognizable. I can't think of anything good though! LOL!!

Sometimes out of politeness to the origional breeder you could check with them to see if they may have already awarded any of the sibs from that batch, and piggyback any names they may have come up with.

The competition for AOS awards for wallisii is steep Heather. I found several entries in the late 90's in Awards Quarterly of some pretty monster plants. You might consider entering it in the "first blooming seedlings" category if allot of phrag species show up at the show.

Sometimes out of politeness to the origional breeder you could check with them to see if they may have already awarded any of the sibs from that batch, and piggyback any names they may have come up with.

The competition for AOS awards for wallisii is steep Heather. I found several entries in the late 90's in Awards Quarterly of some pretty monster plants. You might consider entering it in the "first blooming seedlings" category if allot of phrag species show up at the show.

I wondered also about the ettiquette, so thanks for that suggestion, Rick.

Oh, and don't worry! *I* think it is awardable but that is only because it is my baby! I don't at all expect to receive anything but knowledge from the experience, if it even lasts long enough to make it there in good shape. Also, I wouldn't even probably take it for judging except I am 20mins. from my regional AOS judging center. So, I figure, what the heck?

Go for it :Party: :Party: :Party:

Yes, do it for fun and experience! :clap2:

Okay, I picked a clonal name but I am keeping it a secret until I actually have something awardable. :Shh:

Yes, keep it a secret but I already know the name you picked because I'm psychic! :lol:

Yes, keep it a secret but I already know the name you picked because I'm psychic! :lol:

(and maybe also because I told you....:poke: you goofball!)

:mrgreen:

Phrag walisii "Tadd is awesome" Sounds just great! Thanks Heather hope it wins! :poke:

Phrag walisii "Tadd is awesome" Sounds just great! Thanks Heather hope it wins! :poke:

It is a TAD more elegant than that, but thanks for the suggestion! :disappointed:

Mine would be Phrag Walissii 'doh'

i don't think it's etiquette to piggyback a clonal name. maybe if the breeder gave you the plant, but if you bought it fair and square, it's your choice what to name it. otherwise that's just free advertising.

also beware of people who attach clonal names to everything in sight in an attempt to sell average or merely above average plants, or their progeny.

I learned something there about naming for clones and many thanks but do the same principles and ettiquette apply for hybrid crosses or primary crosses grown from seedlings?

i don't think it's etiquette to piggyback a clonal name. maybe if the breeder gave you the plant, but if you bought it fair and square, it's your choice what to name it. otherwise that's just free advertising.

also beware of people who attach clonal names to everything in sight in an attempt to sell average or merely above average plants, or their progeny.

Yep, come up with your own clonal names... Try to make them distinctive. I'd hate to figure out who's besseae "Red" I had. *grin* My clonal name are usually "Littlefrog Something". Like my Phrag. St. Eligius "Littlefrog Princess". Which I had to give a clonal name because the stupid judges awarded it (It wasn't that good, in my opinion).

Usually I limit myself to giving clonal names to awarded plants. But, I occasionally give a clonal name to a really nice, non awarded plant. I'm a judge, I know what is good. Like my Phrag. Toni Semple "Blind Eye"... But, I think it is critical to give clonal names to plants that I breed with. If I liked a plant enough to make a cross with it, it needs a clonal name. Plus, if I like the progeny enough, I might want to breed with the parent again. Hard to find it without some sort of distinguishing name.

Now for cattleyas and mericlonable things, all bets are off. There are many many mericlones out there. Usually the person who wants the cloning done gives a clonal name. Usually if they went through all that trouble it is a pretty good plant. But you will see a very large percentage of minicatts and phals which are nice, but not awarded, with clonal names. That is probably a good thing.

All of this is very interesting. I've learned a lot also. I think I've come up with something distinctive (and hopefully unique - haven't come across it's use on a paph yet, but I don't have Wildcatt so I cannot be that thorough) to use when the time comes.

This is kind of tangential but related. If I continue to do species breeding as I hope, I intend to do as much outcrossing as I can so it will be important to me to know which plant is which just to reduce inbreeding. Having zero interest in showing for awards I'm mostly just using numbers and initials for now to keep things straight. When I distribute plants I'll assign them a clonal designation that I would hope the recipient would keep should the situation arise when pollen and stigma may meet again.

Mark

If we have a plant that doesn't have a clonal name on its tag, does that mean it wasn't cloned? Meaning, if I have a plant and it came with a tag that bears some cross on it, but the tag doesn't include clonal name. That doesn't necessarily mean the plant I have is NOT a clone, right? Perhaps they just didn't write it down? Do you have to know for a fact that the plant wasn't cloned in order to give it a clonal name, and/or submit it for an award?

Also, what about sib crosses - for example, I have a Enc. cordigera v rosea "Kodama" AM/AOS x sib. Since this is a sib cross, or even a self cross, it's still an Enc cordigera v rosea, but am I right in saying it's no longer "Kodama" because the genes could have mixed differently, even with a self cross? So in principle I could give this another clonal name?

Man, my head hurts :-)

While we're on the subject, here's probably a dumb question which I'm curious about. From what I know, the pollen parent is the first named in a cross and the second is pod parent. I would 'assume' the traits of the pod parent are the dominant which leads to my question. If a name is something like the Grande with a cross of caudatum x longifolium, would/could the opposite, longifolium x caudatum be named differently?

I believe that in the current rules used by the RHS, reciprocal crosses would bear the same name as the original cross.

If we have a plant that doesn't have a clonal name on its tag, does that mean it wasn't cloned? Meaning, if I have a plant and it came with a tag that bears some cross on it, but the tag doesn't include clonal name. That doesn't necessarily mean the plant I have is NOT a clone, right? Perhaps they just didn't write it down? Do you have to know for a fact that the plant wasn't cloned in order to give it a clonal name, and/or submit it for an award?

Also, what about sib crosses - for example, I have a Enc. cordigera v rosea "Kodama" AM/AOS x sib. Since this is a sib cross, or even a self cross, it's still an Enc cordigera v rosea, but am I right in saying it's no longer "Kodama" because the genes could have mixed differently, even with a self cross? So in principle I could give this another clonal name?

Man, my head hurts :-)

Not neccessarily. I have a bunch of phals that are all obviously mericlones, without a clonal name. Some of the big phal growers in Taiwan don't always bother with clonal names. Some big growers in the US don't, either. Somebody told me once that all of the awards to Burr. Nellie Isler (or Linda Isler?) were to the same clone. It was propagated and distributed without a clonal name. Must have been nice...

So it is safe to assume that if it has a clonal name it is a division or a mericlone. If it doesn't have a clonal name, it is pretty likely to be seed grown, but that isn't a guarantee.

And if you self a clone, you end up with a seed population. Each member of that population will be different. They are all distinct cultivars (clones). So they don't inherit the clonal name of the parent. And to the next post, reciprocal crosses get the same name. It is stupid, but that is the way it is done.

By reciprocal crosses, you mean sib crosses? So they stay with the same clonal name? But a self cross does not?

A reciprocal cross is where the pod and pollen parent are switched and refers to the grex names, not the individual clonal names. For instance, Paph Magic Lantern = micranthum x delenatii. The reciprocal would be delenatii x micranthum, which would also be Paph Magic Lantern.

The clonal name given an individual plant is used only for that plant and divisions, meristems, stem props, kekeis, etc. made directly from that plant. Any plants derived from propagation by seed are not entitled to use the clonal name.

So, would that mean that if I named a clone, for example Paph. lowii 'Slipper Orchid Forum' and sold a batch of seedlings, that batch should go through life as Paph. lowii 'Slipper Orchid Forum', even though it was not awarded?

It would then also not be ethical for the buyer to 'rename' the clone. Or am I off track here?

So, would that mean that if I named a clone, for example Paph. lowii 'Slipper Orchid Forum' and sold a batch of seedlings, that batch should go through life as Paph. lowii 'Slipper Orchid Forum', even though it was not awarded?

It would then also not be ethical for the buyer to 'rename' the clone. Or am I off track here?

No... the last part of paphreek's post:

"Any plants derived from propagation by seed are not entitled to use the clonal name."

If you sold divisions, they should go through life with your clonal name but not seedlings.

Only clones, divisions, kekeis, etc., in essence genetic copies, are entitled to retain the clonal name.

Great, thanks

Dear Ernie
I used to be on the R.H.S registration committee( I am still on the R.H.S. Orchid Committee---------in fact the longest serving member)
In the early 1900's many of the old growers did in fact use different names for the reverse cross. This was very much so in Cymbidiums, hence the big confusionin the Cymbid.world
In Paphs the pod parent may dominate but it is not always the case
A good example were the P. Gloria Naugle's made by the Eric Young Foundation.
They used P micranthum as the pod.The cross matured faster and flowered on small plants compared with ones with P. roths. as the pod.
The flowers still had a good stem
Paul