Hello all,

My father, Robert and I usually breed based upon instincts, past breeding (re-making classics with better parents etc..) and good quality parents. There are many ways one can go when you have over 5000 breeding parents to use!

But I suppose for the future of the business that it is a good idea to ask what hobbiests are interested in. So feel free to throw you're opinion in on this thread! Phrags, Paphs, species, certain types of hybrids, colors? There are endless possibilities of course.

One thing is for certain, Phrag. Jason Fischer will be re-made until the end of time, I can never have enough in stock! :)

I would definitely like to see more different kovachii hybrids being made which I'm sure has already begun breeding as we speak. I'm not a very big fan of hybrids but the number one kovachii hybrid I would love to see and get would be a kovachii x warscewiczianum (popowii). Second hybrid I wouldn't mind seeing would be a kovachii x Bell Hougue Pointe. How about a Jason Fischer x kovachii hybrid? I think that would make a great looking plant! :D

Paph hybrid? I would love to see a Paph philippinense x Paph gigantifolium hybrid.

Hi Jason,
Thanks for the tour back in July.

What I would like to see with phrags is more orange and yellow flowers using bessea flavum. From the photos posted recently, seems like you are doing those crosses. Keep up the good work and visit Winnipeg so I can buy them.

I would also like to see an effort made to grow smaller plants, using fisheri, pearcii and the new andreettea to get smaller, windowsil sized plants.

Another thing I would like to see is some line breeding done with Phrag schlimii. I think, like besseae, there is the posibility of having some much improved flowers if the effort is made.

As for kovachi, I want to see it crossed with sargentianum. I want to see what effect sargentianum will have on the color of the offspring.

Kyle

Of course, we are all looking forward to kovachii and it's hybrids. Richly colored flowers in phrags are desireable whether it's yellow, red or green.
Continued linebreeding of both phrag and paph species, especially the rarely grown species would be good. Some of these are difficult to grow and get seed from, but need to be done to perhaps create easier growing forms. Miniature paph breeding lines should create some very good hybrids, and remakes of old hybrids with improved species is always a good route.
Thanks for asking!

More kovachii hybrids...what about henrynum crossed with sanderianum? Nice spots and colors from henrynum and long petals of sanderinum...now that would be AWESOME...Nice thread...thnx

Bulldog Phrags.

I would like to see more Paph micranthum var. eburneum crosses, and the species too actually. They are hard to find and pretty pricey.

1. Blue?

2. completely white Phrags

3. brachy's that keep their roots

:D

Bulldog Phrags.

lol

well what i would like to see is

-paph parishii
-easy to grow paph randsii
-paph parishii x supardii
-paph supardii x adductum
-paph tigrinum x supardii
-paph tigrinum x parishii
-paph tigrinum x stonei
-paph tigrinum x hirsutissimum
-paph dianthum x parishii

and im with tim a blue paph and a completely white phrag!

I think Paph tigrinum x Paph sanderianum would make an interesting looking hybrid.

Selective breeding for massive Delenatii :)

I'd like to see you continue breeding 'Mini Vini's' such as the beautiful Paph Linda Neese (thailandense x Isle of Red Sky) that you bloomed out. Can they be made even smaller while maintaining the great color and form?

Thank you all for your responses. The good news is that we are on track with many of the ideas you have suggested for breeding (you guys are good!).

I'll comment on some of the suggestions:

First off, of course kovachii hybrids will be VERY fun to see. We ourselves, nor anybody else in the US will actually be able to do the breeding until they reach mature size which will probably take 2 to 3 more years or so based upon the speed they are growing (much slower than most phrags). However, the nurseries in Peru have been working on it and have already began to export to the US. Some of the hybrids we now have are:

x schilmii
x dalessandroi
x wallisii
x longifolium

We are always breeding for red, yellow and orange phrags (getting the seeds is the tough part!)

We have just started to make a few hybrids with micranthum var. eberneum (by the way we have 2 in bud for sale right now... $100 each)

We have a few brachy hybrids with concolor that grow like weeds

tigrinum hybrids rarely take, and if they do seed count is low, but we always try

we do have many new sanderianum hybrids coming along, you can do a search under sanderianum on our site and see

we have large parent delenatii siblings in the flask

and finally to Ross, we will try crossing the mini vini's onto small dark flowers to see how small we can go. I also want to put a mini vini on fairrieanum!

Thanks for the input and keep it coming!

-Jason

I'd like to see an all-white long twistie-petaled Phrag.

Maybe a fire-engine red one, also.

Excellent new hybrids on the horizon! :woohoo: Very exciting since no one has actually seen any kovachii hybrids in bloom yet, I just can't wait.

Thanks Jason!

I would also like to see fast growing roths and sanderinums...:D

I would like smaller and faster growing multis, improved line bred species and more work on teacup Paphs (such as helenae and henryanum).

David

How about a carnivorous hardy slipper that eats deer and the neighbors' constantly screaming eight-year-olds?

Or short of that, line bred niveums and randsiis...

--Stephen

Our latest roth sibling ('Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate') has been growing quite fast indeed! It has been only 5 years out of flask and one of our customers actually got one to spike before we did! Unfortunatley, he did not water enough and the spike dried up... what a bummer! I have to update our web as many are even larger than what is listed now.

I've been making misc. hybrids with henryanum, hopefully some have germinated (I'll have to check with Robert in the lab).

That's a good idea on the niveum line breeding. I once had a 4N niveum that unfortunately got rot... what a shame as I've never seen once since. I did get a few seedlings out of it, but it was a hybrid with rothschildianum. Perhaps it will yeild an awesome Woulwanense?! (probably spelled that wrong).

OK Mr. Silence, I'll gene splice a Nepenthes truncata with a malipoense and we'll get a huge carnivorous slipper, just don't complain to me if it starts eating your own family members!

I thought Paph rothschildianum are already fast growers.

Paphman910

I'd like to see an all-white long twistie-petaled Phrag.

Maybe a fire-engine red one, also.

I agree with Dot!

I also would like to see some parvis and brachys crossed more with multiflorals!

thanks

How about a carnivorous hardy slipper that eats deer and the neighbors' constantly screaming eight-year-olds?
And please include rabbits, skunks, chipmonks and racoons!

I have only heard of one attempt to breed an intergeneric PhragXCyp, but I would love that. Especially if you got a nice Phrag caudatum or wallisii crossed with a big Cyp pubescens or kentuckiense. A hardy *long* petalled multifloral that blooms all summer and then goes dormant ;)

Best,
Ross

I have only heard of one attempt to breed an intergeneric PhragXCyp, but I would love that. Especially if you got a nice Phrag caudatum or wallisii crossed with a big Cyp pubescens or kentuckiense. A hardy *long* petalled multifloral that blooms all summer and then goes dormant ;)

Best,
Ross

That would make an incredible intergenric hybrid plant...good one!:clap2:

For Phrag, I like what Kyle said.
-Intense yellow & orange. (Once, I saw a pure yellow Don Wimber in an article about Chuck Acker)
-Orchids Limited already has a white phrag or very close to it (Desormes, Saint Ouen)
-How about:
1) a very dark phrag (like vini in paph)
2) two tones, one for pouch , another color for petals (like orther orchids)
3) spotted petals (I saw beautiful leopard pattern inside an Inti's Tear's pouch) can you breed phrag to have pattern on the petals?
4) A green , but w/ bubble pouch like besseae.
5) There is a besseae clone shown on the Club Peruano de Orquideas web site
www.peruorchids.com/. with its intense translucent window slits & the pouch looks like burning flame, that I am just absolutely crazy about.
6) Maybe, set aside one greenhouse with various USMC like conditions (extreme heat, dry, wet, cold, etc..whatever you can think of) then throw a whole bunch of besseae seedlings in it, breed with only the survival ones to create a new line of tough besseae. Maybe, you can train some kovachii for toughness too.
:p

Our latest roth sibling ('Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate') has been growing quite fast indeed! It has been only 5 years out of flask and one of our customers actually got one to spike before we did! Unfortunatley, he did not water enough and the spike dried up... what a bummer! I have to update our web as many are even larger than what is listed now.



Bloomed in 5 years from out of flask? Wow! It is on my list of next OL purchase! :D Thanks Jason!:cool:

What is the parents in the Paph rothschildianum ('Borneo Dark' x 'Dark Chocolate')? Is the clone 'Borneo Dark' and 'Dark Chocolate' from the 'Rex' x 'Mont Millais' cross done by Terry Root?

Paphman910

OK Mr. Silence, I'll gene splice a Nepenthes truncata with a malipoense and we'll get a huge carnivorous slipper, just don't complain to me if it starts eating your own family members!

Sweet! I've got a couple aggravating little cousins that would make good food...

How about an article/book/pamphlet/etc. on the species and hybrid clones that OL has and has used in their breeding? I really like tracing the clonal lineage of things and the major breeders could really help by sharing their records regarding their crosses.

One obvious objection, though... Would this be revealing trade secrets and bad for business?

--Stephen

Hey guys,

We did do several cyp x phrag hybrids one year, using both genus as pod parents. The only ones that held seed pods were the cyps, and they did germitate, but only to become more cypripediums! I think (forgot the terminology) what happens is the cyp recognizes the pollen and starts to pull it in, only to realize that there is a missing link/chromosome. Therefore the cyp actually fills in this missing link itself and becomes a self pollinated seed pod. There is a word for this action and if any of you know it feel free to post! I'll have to ask Robert next chance I get.

I think the pure yellow don wimber is a good idea. I've thought about doing that before and simply forgot. It actually is easy to do as you just use the besseae flavum in both parents. I wonder if that is what Chuck did, or if it popped out of a normal DW cross. I'll ask him next time, he's a good buddy of mine.

Well, it is probably a little magazine with a primary following in California, but I did recently write a short article on our phrag hybridizing with besseae for the July issue of the Cymbidium Society of America Journal. You can probably get extra copies from them. In fact, I think they are in dire need of writers to keep their journal going. If you think you can contribute, here's a link to their site: http://www.cymbidium.org/

Paphman910, I know for sure that one of the two parents is from the Rex x Mont Millais... I'll check on the other. It is most likely from the same lineage or it is Ray x Charles E.

That's all for now, thanks for all the interesting suggestions etc..!

Interesting Cyp x Phrag hybrid info:cool: ...thnx

On the topic of intergenerics, does matching the chromosome number from both parents help this problem? I don't know Phrags, but most Cyps have 2n = 20, or sometimes 22. Does anyone know 2n = for Phrags?

Best,
Ross

On the topic of intergenerics, does matching the chromosome number from both parents help this problem? I don't know Phrags, but most Cyps have 2n = 20, or sometimes 22. Does anyone know 2n = for Phrags?

Best,
Ross
Most Phrags aside from Micropetalums and Caudatum types are in the 2n=18-22 range, if I'm not mistaken.

Paphman910, I know for sure that one of the two parents is from the Rex x Mont Millais... I'll check on the other. It is most likely from the same lineage or it is Ray x Charles E.

That's all for now, thanks for all the interesting suggestions etc..!

If it was made from the Rex x MM parents, then I'm even more interested in getting one. :cool: Thanks, Jason!

Most Phrags aside from Micropetalums and Caudatum types are in the 2n=18-22 range, if I'm not mistaken.

Micropetulum phrags are all over the board. I believe fisherii is in the mid 30's, dalessandroi is in 28 and besseae is 22-24. I forget schlimmi.

kyle

..............
Paphman910, I know for sure that one of the two parents is from the Rex x Mont Millais... I'll check on the other. It is most likely from the same lineage or it is Ray x Charles E.

That's all for now, thanks for all the interesting suggestions etc..!

Thanks Jason. Do let me know what the other parentage is. I have heard about Paph rothschildianum 'Ray' x 'Charles E' cross. They are nice but not as good as the 'Rex' x 'Mont Millais' cross. Did this cross come from Wharton Sinkler?

Paphman910

Here are a few chromosome counts for phrags:

Phragmipedium (caudatum group) all are 2n=28
besseae 2n=24
dalessandroi 2n=28
besseae flavum 2n=24,25,26
schlimii 2n=30
lindleyanum 2n=22
sargentianum 2n=22
boissierianum 2n=18
vittatum 2n=18
longifolium 2n=23
longifolium gracile 2n=21
hartwegii 2n=20
roezlii,pearcei,ecuadorense 2n=22
caricinum 2n=21,22

these are from the Orchid Digest, and we are missing some of the more newly discovered species such as fischeri, kovachii, etc.

These incompatible numbers are the biggest reason for little breeding beyond primary and near primary hybrids before the advent of 4n breeding.

Do tetraploid Phrags misbehave the same way when you put them on Cyps?
Unfortunately there are no tetraploid Cyps yet, AFAIK.

Hien pretty much read my thoughts on Phrags already: Whites would be cute, but also Greens, both using the albino longifolium. Vinis using selected kovachii and sargentianum, and in general smaller plant size and more flowers open simultaneously.
I wish for multifloral Paphs that are small stature and have good contrasting colour: wilheminae and anitum come to mind. Teacups will be great for the window-sill, both primaries and complex/near-complex.
Line-breeding of species is very much wellcome, make them all more big, more quick, more tough or just make more...

Most of all I wish you guys would travel Europe :)

Cheers, Carsten

OK guys I've done my rothschildianum research and here's what I came up with:

1.

We have 'King Cobra' x 'Dark Spell' (I just realized I need to add this to our website for sale!! I'll get on that right after this post)

'King Cobra' = 'Rex' x 'Mont Milais' - this is one of our best, and was used on the 2004 catalog cover (our last printed catalog). We've never had it judged

'Dark Spell' = 'Ray' x 'Charles E.' FCC/AOS

2.

'Dark Chocolate' x 'Borneo Dark' OK I was wrong on the parentage of this. Here is what they are.

'Dark Chocolate' = 'Mi'Lord' x 'Mi'Lady', a plant originally from Alan Sultzman (NY), and known to be more compact and fast growing

'Borneo Dark' = 'Charles E.' FCC/AOS x 'Borneo' FCC/AOS From Herb Hager, purchased back in the 80's.

Now, here's the really cool news. This was de-flasked in late 2003, which means that the customer who brought it into spike last month has a 3 year old plant! Of course, there are always going to be about a dozen plants or so that grow faster than the rest in any large batch of paphs.

3.

We also have 'Borneo Dark' x self.

Again, all of these crosses will be available on our website as soon as I update it (which will be today).

Hope this helps out!

Bloomed after 3 years from flask? :surprise: Now that is a fast growing roth which is unheard of. Excellent roth info and I appreciate all your help and time, thanks Jason!:D

Now if only you could get Sanderinums to bloom in 3 years from flask that would be just AWESOME...thnx

How about more lowii x sanderianum (mrs. reginald young)? Lowii crosses are always fascianting!

This is an update to number 1 on my previous post. I had the wrong parents listed:

The correct parents are: 'King Wilhelm' x 'King Cobra'

'King Cobra' = 'Rex' x 'Mont Milais' - this is one of our best, and was used on the 2004 catalog cover (our last printed catalog). We've never had it judged

'King Wilhelm' = We are not sure on the back ground of this plant. It is another one we obtained back in the 80's, but happens to be the most vigorous roth we have in that it always sends out multiple growths (has somewhere around 10 right now).

These are now 4-7" LS at $35 each.

http://www.orchidweb.com/images/rothkc1l.jpg

Wow, those are great looking roths with nice broad petals. Thanks Jason!

How about more lowii x sanderianum (mrs. reginald young)? Lowii crosses are always fascianting!

Hi Chris, welcome to the forum! :welcome: I love lowii and lowii x sanderianum hybrids are so rare. Good suggestion!

How about more lowii x sanderianum (mrs. reginald young)? Lowii crosses are always fascianting!

I second that!!!! Welcome to the SOF!:welcome:

WOW Jason those are impressive! Pretty nice price too. :D

Those are awesome roth plants and nice affordable price...thnx Jason

Very impressive!!!

I have never seen a photo of the hybrid sanderianum x lowii. But I have been told by others that it is one of the ugliest hybrids around. For what ever reason it just doesn't work. I have assumed that is why you never see this cross and why the focus has been more on secondary hybrids such as Screaming Eagle (Berenice x sanderianum). Anyone actually seen sanderianum x lowii in flower and can confirm or deny this?

David

I have never seen a photo of the hybrid sanderianum x lowii. But I have been told by others that it is one of the ugliest hybrids around. For what ever reason it just doesn't work. I have assumed that is why you never see this cross and why the focus has been more on secondary hybrids such as Screaming Eagle (Berenice x sanderianum). Anyone actually seen sanderianum x lowii in flower and can confirm or deny this?

David

I have never seen one in person but have seen photos and the flowers were not very impressive looking to me but I'm sure some may like this hybrid as they say "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". :D

Thanks Jason Fischer for the roth breeding lines.

It is possible to get a fast growing roth that can reach a leafspan of 24 inches in three years from flask. I have a few rothschildianum that are that size. The other seedlings range in size from 18-12 inch leafspan.

I find the slowest growing ones are the roth breeding with alot of 'Mont Millais' blood. For example a cross Paph roth ('Mont Millais' x self) x roth ('Rex' x 'Mont Millais').

Paphman910

I have bloomed a handful of Mrs.Reginald Young, and they are pretty much what you would expect. Sanderianum petal length is heavily influenced by the other parent hence crosses like Prince Edward of York and Michael Koopowitz show the long petals. The petal length on this hybrid are presented more like lowii although a bit longer, and the reddish color is there.
The petals are longer than crosses with the cochlopetalum group.
I recently bloomed the cross of Sander's Parish( x parishii), and it had much longer petals than the lowii cross. My guess is that Screaming Eagle has such long petals due to the parishii ancestry.

I believe the problem with lowii x sanderianum is less to do with the petal length and more to do with the flower shape. If you took away the long petals, sanderianum is a pretty ordinary flower.

In relation to breeding, I would like to see the cross Julius x sanderianum. The one photo I have seen was very spectacular and I have never seen this cross available.

David

Thanks peter :) I'm a paph killer, so have given up on all but my PEOY seedling i got recently (after this, thats it) and am having lukewarm success at best with phrags, so I'm definitely keeping an eye on things around here for anything that can help :p

am having lukewarm success at best with phrags

Welcome to my world. :rolleyes:

Hi Chris- :hi: :welcome: to the best forum.

Being old school (involved with orchids in the early 1970's), I still want complex paphs - but preferably bred for smaller plants. Since I also have a weakness for fairrieanum, you can see where I am headed.

Towards this end, does anyone have a division of William Stirling 'West Point' (complex with heavy fairrieanum influence) available?

Secondly, earlier someone asked for white Phrags.

Phrag. Memoria Ann Stuckey ‘Ghostwriter’ JC/AOS = (pearcei x Silver Eagle)
The attached photo is from the 2006 Slipper Alliance Forum in DC (pls pardon quality, it is very dark in that room). It was exhibited by Woodstream. When I asked this summer, Bill could not remember where he got this plant.

Wow that's gorgeous! Love the color and the wavy petals. Is this hybrid difficult to find?

Bill from Woodstream could not remember where he got it. The cross is registered by Root, which I take to mean the Orchid Zone. He does not sell direct unless you are prepared to spend a good amount, so we would have to try other sellers of Phrags.

We had quite a few of these, but they're all sold. We did purchase them from Terry. Here's mine: I really like it!

http://www.slipperorchids.info/phragcomplex/PhragMemAnnStuckey1.jpg

That's a beauty Dot!

We had quite a few of these, but they're all sold. We did purchase them from Terry. Here's mine: I really like it!

http://www.slipperorchids.info/phragcomplex/PhragMemAnnStuckey1.jpg

How did I miss this one :heart: :heart: :heart: ...Dot if you ever divide it, please keep me in mind. Terry sure is a great breeder!!