On May 22 Paphjoint (Uri) from France has mention of purchasing a flask of kovachii. With the picture following on June 11. The plants look very healthy, in fact the plants are taller than mine, leaves, and roots are also better than mine. About 3 weeks ago, Uri reported that all the plantlets turned brown & die. (I see pictures from Japanese web site, showing the same browning leaves problem, other forums mentioned that a lot of the Taiwanese’s flasks die the same way) This same thing had happen to me first with the Pk flask that I got from Glen Decker, and now the ones from Peru-Flora start to show the same symptom.
However, I do not think it is fair for me to transfer any blame to either of them. My reasoning is that at the time I got the flask from Glen , the seedlings are big, green with very healthy roots. Manolo’s plants are somewhat smaller but also green. No contamination sign. The plants seem to do ok for couple weeks in my hand before any problem appears. Moreover, pictures from Chuck & Orchid Limited show very healthy vigorous seedlings in their greenhouse, so the problem does not have anything to do w/ the plants.
This prompt me to post this information. Hopefully, more forum members can offer their advice & experience . There must be more of SOF members who also acquired phrag. kovachii than the three of us ( Stephen, Uri & myself)
we can all help each other in keeping the plants alive by avoid the obvious flaws in culturing, since this species is still new, there are still not much information in trying different methods yet.

My problem roots in the growing location. The sunroom face southeast w/ windows from floor to ceiling, w/ shed roof attached to the house (this converted by the former owner from a porch, therefor , no insulation). Thinking back, Glen’s plants start to show yellow leaves in May, when the temperature start to rise. My only regret is I do not deflask Glen’s plants right away in April.
In a past conversation w/ Mrs H. P. Norton, she emphasized that they raise their kovachii cool.
Another expert grower in Canada (who is the sole supplier for kovachii in Canada.) Also offer the same temperature observation along with other helpful information. He even has an air conditioning unit just for the separate Pk room.
After the disaster w/ Glen’s flask in the sunroom, I decide to keep all Manolo’s flasks at the front of the house, where there is no direct light, and the temperature is at least 10 degree lower. However, around one week into July, they start to show the same spotting, then brown leaves. Some flasks had half of the seedlings wiped-out.
I contact Manolo, and receive more information . This pin point the problem at least in my case to temperature.(NO FACTOR CHANGE IN FLASK OTHER THAN TEMPERATURE)
My air-conditioning can only bring the front part of the house down to 80 degree ,WHICH IS STILL 10 DEGREE MORE THAN THE PERISHABLE MARK, even running non stop. ( lately, we even have 100 degree day in New Jersey!!) So I just hope that some plants make it thru summer. There is nothing I can do to bring the temperature lower!


Following are their advice combined:

Seedling in flask:
-yellow leaves in pk seedling in flask means temperature getting too high. if one can low it down to 68-70 degree, one should not deflask or replate..Maximum temperature for Pk is 70 degree. Dramatic change (either higher or lower direction) will create brown spots & brown leaves. Plant can bear higher temperatures, but the humidity has to raise also, otherwise the plants will not like it
-Idea temperature is 62 degree.
-Temperature should not be over (70ºF).
-If you want to increase the temperature (which truly increases the rate of growth), do it gradually until 24º C (76º F).
-Over 24º C (76ºF) the tips of the leaves will turn brown in minutes, and if this happens with the upper leaf then the plantlet will stop growing with enormous chances to die unless a lateral growth starts.
-Roots are the most important part of the plantlets, and they will vigorously grow at 21º C (70º F)
-No direct sun light, Only a few hundred foot candles of ratio of 10 hrs/14 hrs

Deflasking:
On another website someone name WENG in England has deflask the plant at 2mm across size ,
and his plants thrive. (This sounds extremely small)
-Deflasking of seedling depends more on the amount of roots than size of plant (3 or more roots of the same length as the leaves)

Seedling in compot:
-Once out of the flasks, plantlets should be pampered for the first weeks with constant temperatures not over 26º C (79º F) and not lower than 18º C (64º F).
-No direct sun light (50% shade) 500 foot candles. of 14 hrs/10 hrs to 16 hrs /8 hrs maximum)
-Raise both humidity & ventilation for the leaves is very important.
-one source grow kovachii in sand but said that rockwool is ok too.
-root should have contact w/ good moisture
-The ideal medium is rock wool because of its excellent rate of moisture retention and ventilation. A combination of 50% bark and 50% sphagnum gives us good results too. We cultivate plantlets of Phragmipedium kovachii and Phragmipedium besseae under the same constant temperature of 18º C during the first year.

If you use other mediums, watering methods, lighting etc, successfully with kovachii, please let me know. It is quite painful to see them die!

Hien

Very interesting information, thank you! There is no way I could ever keep my temeratures cool enough for a Pk flask. Sorry you lost seedlings. At least people can learn from your experience. very kind of you to share!

Even though I wont be getting a kovachii but thnx for sharing that information with us...sorry to hear about your seedlings.

Hi Teresa & Guy

I believe that:
-My first mistake is not deflask Glen flask right away. They are good size w/ good roots, which means they could survive outside the flask.
-My second mistake is keeping the flask in the sunroom w/ direct sunlight & high temperature. (heat can built up even more inside flask, since there is no ventilation)

The seedling in flask prefer 60 to 70 degrees. maybe max at 76 degrees for growth. But 70 degree seems to be best for both roots & leaves.
Once outside the flask, they can be raise at 80 degree, perhaps more w/ a lot of moisture ( the more moisture , the more heat it can handle)

Perhaps getting the flask in the fall when the temperature is cool, by next year summer, the seedlings will be out of flask, and be more tolerant of heat. Furthermore, one can control other culture factors better to compensate, once the seedlings are no longer in flask.

Hien

Thanks much for the temp info. I also had some trouble with brown spotting in flask [half-flask from Glen] and it did some damage to the leaves. I deflasked about a month ago and the seedlings have bounced back a bit and are growing new leaves. I have them in a chc-perlite-charcoal-diatomite mix with a ton of oyster shell added. They get low light and are kept at about 75 F.

Here's a pic after a recent repotting:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a25/silence882/kovachiis.jpg

--Stephen

Your seedlings look very nice. I find that deflasked seedling leaves on Paphs do develop brown spots but the new leaves show no sign of spots. I think the leaves grown in the flask are more tender than the leaves developed in the compots. Would it have been better to pot the seedling in a bulb clay pot sitting in one inch of water in a saucer to give it the evaporative effect. The bottom of the clay pot would have a layer of large perlite. I would pot the seedlings in a mixture of sphagnum, perlite and fine mixture. I would also pot most of the seedling close to the edge of the compot because it is cooler in this area than the center.

Paphman910

Teresa & Guy
Thanks for the kind words on the perished seedlings

Stephen
Your plants look great, look like you managed to save all of them. At first, I thought I was the only one with the problem. I was even guessing that the flask medium is not optimum, until I realized that the flask medium is the only constant factor whether the plants are green or brown (therefor, it can not be the culprit).

Paphman910
I believe you hit the nail right on regarding the solution. In fact the 4 largest kovachii from Glen's flask that hanging on (they only have half of 1 large leaf left, with a tiny leaf start). I pot them in pure diatomite, sit in 1/2 inch of water saucer. Then sit the pot in a another large plastic container fill w/ 1 inch of water (I am afraid a little bit that this may be too wet, but this is the only way so far that I can cool it down from the 80 degree). Just like your thought of increase cooling thru evaporation.
The observation of planting the seedling near the edge also make so much sense, I guess the smallest pot would offer both the advantage of the seedling closer to each others, as well as the cooling from the edge of the clay pot.

Hien

Sorry to hear about your kovachii seedlings and thanks for sharing the important tips and your experience with us!:cool:

Hien, have you noticed a difference in the vigorousness of the species seedlings vs. the hybrid seedlings?

I asked Fritz at Tropical Propagations (who did the labwork for Glen) for recommendations on deflasking and he suggested the agar-on method. When I recompotted a month or so later, all the agar was gone and the roots were in great shape. (this may not apply to peruflora kovachii, as their flasking media may make the agar-on method a very bad idea)

I agree that the new leaves are heartier than the in-flask leaves. In all the flasks I've yet come across, the leaves which developed in-flask are way more fragile than those which grow out after deflasking. Once the new leaves started to appear in the kovachii seedlings, my mind was eased about the brown spots that had developed on the initial leaves.

The temps in the kovachii habitat aren't seasonal and mean temps stay at about 16-17 C year-round (very cool for a Phrag). They grow on limestone cliffs in mosses and crumbly brown soil with a roughly neutral pH (Koopowitz 2003). I would be extremely wary about using any media that will decay to a significantly acidic pH.

--Stephen

I would repot them anually and add dolomite lime. I heard they occur in area with limestone. I don't think the dolomite lime would cause a big change in pH as it is very insoluble. Repot annually is very important to reduce the medium breaking down and become very acidic. Your water quality is very important to any Phrag or Paph seedling health. Low salts and near neutral water is the best for these plants. I am very lucky to have good water out of the tap with 29 PPM and a pH of 6.7

Paphman910

Everything I have read on the internet sites say kovachii and the primary hybrids will not be sold before March 2007. How are you all buying it before the release date?

e-spice

sorry to hear about your troubles but thanks for the info. I will hopefully be getting kovachii soon. wish me luck!

Everything I have read on the internet sites say kovachii and the primary hybrids will not be sold before March 2007. How are you all buying it before the release date?

e-spice

certain people in the US, Europe, and canada are authorized to sell them. You are not allowed to re-sell them though, so I understand.

There is no 'official' release date for kovachii. There are two nurseries in Peru, Peruflora and Centro de Jardineria Manrique that were authorized to collect 5 plants apiece for artificial propagation.

Peruflora started selling flasks at the 2005 WOC in Dijon, France. However, they required that anyone buying their flasks sign a document promising not to sell, trade, or donate any of the seedlings until February, 2007. This document was NOT in any way, shape, or form connected with the Peruvian government.

CdJM has partnered with Piping Rock Orchids in NY to breed and distribute kovachii and its hybrids (except for Canada, where Green Canyon Orchids is the distributor). Piping Rock started selling flasks this spring without the ridiculous form mentioned above. Seedlings should be available for sale very soon.

For more history, Kyle's pictures and my full rant:
http://www.slipperorchids.info/phragdatasheets/kovachii/

--Stephen

Stephen, you might note in your "rant" that Chuck Acker got his plants from Peruflora.

Stephen, you might note in your "rant" that Chuck Acker got his plants from Peruflora.

Hrm, I did but I forgot to capitalize Peruflora. I will correct that with my next upload.

--Stephen

Oops -- is that why I missed it? I found it at the second reading.

I wonder how much it would cost for a Phrag kovachii in Canada. I hope it doesn't cost an arm and a leg for a few seedlings. If the seedling are $30 for a seedling with 6 inch leafspan is reasonable. I may wait 5-6 years and I do know that they will drop in price due to production. Not only will it cheaper but selective breeding will make this species easy to grow. I think a blooming size kovachii will sell for $75-85.

I remember seeing a catalog from Bergstrom Orchids that was selling Phrag besseae for $100 many years ago. You can get besseae alot cheaper than that nowadays.

I would wait for prices to drop because these phrags grow like weeds.

Paphman910

I think you estimates are probably low, at least until kovachii becomes as common as besseae -- a few years from now.

Maybe 10 years from now

Paphman910

Thanks for all these informative posts about kovachii seedlings -

I exchanged some mails with Manolo Arias - who told me that the seedlings should be (have been) kept at temps below 24°C - Now it would have been good if he had told me that when I bought the flask, which he did not !

He also proposed to replace the seedlings - this is yet to happen......

Hi Peter
Thanks you for the kind thought.

James
If you are in Canada, I believe there is only one source, so your kovachii will be from Peter Croezen, (which is Manriques/Glen/Fritz group) I sincerely wish you good luck anyway.

Stephen
You are quite brave to try the agar on method (this may explain the survival of your seedlings) not only your temperature is lower, your plants also get some nutrition until establish. However, I did not dare to try it, I believe that Tom Kalina mentioned on the SOF that it is quite risky, Chuck also confirmed this (your medium must be quite steriled that it did not create any mold problem).
-Yes, on the different in the media. Glen’s media is quite liquid, in fact I found some water underneath the flask. Manolo’s media on the other hand very firm, it takes me longer to take off the agar. I do not think it will dissolve easily by itself in compot.
A softer media may not travel well, because the plants are not packed well together as for example Chuck’s flask
-I am praying for new leaf to grow, before the ½ old leaf finally gives up.
-Yes, the hybrids grow much faster.

761 wallisii “Rapunzel”x kovachii ‘Tupac Amaru” grows 3 times as fast as the species
783 kovachii”Tupac Amaru”x dalessandroi grows twice as fast

the next group that grow a bit includes the selfing of the Roseline, Tupac Amaru, or the crosses using them. I remember that Orchid Limited also mentions that Jewel x Roseline is the most vigorous of their crosses too.

755 kovachii “Roseline” x self
752 kovachii “Goliath” x “Roseline”
764 kovachii “Tupac Amaru” x self
763 kovachii “Tupac Amaru” x “Roseline”

The larger flower group is quite reluctant to grow. I list them in order of growth

756 kovachii “Tupac Amaru” x “Goliath”
757 kovachii “Tupac Amaru” x “Maximus”
758 kovachii “Maximus” x “Goliath”
751 kovachii “Goliath” x “Jewel”

So it seems, either the cross is vigorous because it is breeding out to wallisii, dalessandroi, or because the clones Roseline & Tupac Amaru are better choices.
This is just happen in my case, they may not represent the whole picture. Others may have different flask growth.

E-Spice
The first group of buyers all have to get the Pk in flasks. As per Stephen reply, by now, hundred of peoples all ready got the legal flasks from both sources
Manolo flasks will only available in shows around the world, (in fact an Australian orchid show for this month advertises a bunch of South american nurseries including Peru-flora)or in case of OL & Chuck they have to go down to Peru to carry it back.
Manrique flasks are released at the GNYOS show in april 2006, since then, every time I type the world kovachii on google, another local orchid society feature them as speakers, and Kovachii flasks & seedlings for sale at that local meeting. Do you belong to any local orchid society? I do believe that people already bought their PK hybrids seedlings (not flasks)
The 2007 release are the seedlings from OL & Chuck., the plants will be at the safe & maageable sizes at that release

Paphman 910
I tend to agree with Phragfan estimate. You are also right that the line breeding will create an easier to grow plant.(I heard that Terry Root ruthlessly throw away every plant that does not look strong. That was how he bred his besseaes) I bet as soon as theses plants flower OL, Chuck, Terry & whoever have the plants will start the process right away. By the way Chuck seems to say that the plant do flower on one growth. So the prospect of easier plants is even faster
Maybe if one of my survive, all the famous breeders will running over for a division in order to breed for extreme high temperature tolerance.
We are talking 100 degree F survival (of course, I am only joking)

Uri
I am verry sorry about your flask’s situation. It was quite painful to watch my big seedlings from Glen die slowly. I always prefer summer, and hate winter. I could not believe that this year I pray for the summer to be short!

It took 20+ years from discovery for Phrag. besseae to be widely available for $30 for a BS plant. Hopefully, it'll take half that time for kovachii since besseae has already repopularized the genus. Also, when Phrag. besseae was first introduced, it took 10 years before people got its cultural needs down. Also, there are thousands of illegal P. kovachii all over the world. Their offspring will flood the market in five years' time.

I only ever do the agar-on method if the person who did the flasking tells me alright (Antec and Fritz, so far). I asked Chuck once and he told me all agar is different, so if unsure, wash the agar off. I get the feeling that the agar that the kovachiis were growing in was quite thin and disappeared within a few weeks. The resulting root growth was great, so I'd use the same method with other kovachii flasks from Glen & Fritz.

--Stephen

Thanks for summarising the info Hien. I'm one of the "lucky" people in Australia who was able to purchase kovachii at the Port Maquarie conference. There was a little drama though as our Sydney customs people got a little concerned about possible contamination of some of the flasks which delayed Manolo's selling them. I got the dallesandroi cross and I'm heartened by your note about their growth speed. I'll be getting (hopefully) the wallisii cross and one of the species in a short while if what Manolo told me comes to pass. I'll have some dramas maintaining the requisite temp for the species in January so I'm hoping the hybrids can take it otherwise it'll be an expensive lesson learnt.


Cheers
Stephan

Hi Stephan

Congratulation on your new acquisition. I was wondering whether any SOF member in Australia attend that show and get the kovachii.
Make sure you keep the temperature for the flask low as per the combined advices from the those growers that I had talked to.
One more thing, If you notice, there is a baggie (sandwich bag around the flasK) DO NOT TAKE IT OFF.
Both Chuck Acker & Kyle thought that it is a good idea not to take it off. It provides an extra layer of protection from contamination, unless you keep your flask in a very clean environment. With that extra layer of protection, there is no mold grow in my flasks so far (2 months)

Thanks for this excellent thread!

I too have got a flask of kovachii... but it seems that Peruflora have also realised that the growers need a little bit more help with the culture, so they have provided a guide on how to grow the seedlings... which as it turns out is what Hien has already posted at the very start.

temperature did seem to be quite important, thankfully we are in our winter months here in Oz so keeping the temps below the 24celsius should be no problem!

Again, thanks for the information on this thread... esp the agar on vs agar off deflasking method!

my 3 tiny kovachii are still green, bought in february, and have made 3/4 new leaves, but when one has finished to grow, one old dies... and so they don't grow, I think there is a problem with fertilising...
A friend of I (and great grower) told me to keep them at pH=7 and to fertilize them a lot (as Paph rothschildianum), what I have been doing for a month!
It's true that they were growing much better when temperature was 18-25°C than now (27-33°C)
I'm using rockwool

Paulo,
you only mention that your friend tell you to fertilize a lot. You did not elaborate on what you mean by a lot. (I do not have a rothchildianum) Do you mean high concentration of fertilizer, or the frequency? Did you deflask them right away, how big were your plant when you deflask them?

On an old SOF thread dated 07-24-2005 with the title “If I may be so bold” by consettbay2003, there are a lot of SOF members who get together to buy the kovachii (I assume that your plants will be a year old now? ). So there must be a lot more peoples who have the kovachii by now than the few of us who appear on this current post.
Please, do not feel reticent about sharing your experience & replying to this thread. Whether your plants are still in flask or out in compot, individual pot etc.. Whether they die in flask, fail after planting out, or thrive and grow like weed . The most important thing is that we accumulate as much information about this plant as possible and the why and how from different perspectives. All information are important. You may have more categories than what I list below, and if you have picture of your result, it would even be better.

-Deflask
a) how early did you deflask your kovachii ? (what size of plantlet) (were you forced to deflask because the plants show symptoms)
b) your smallest seedling size that manage to survive ? (how tall when you deflask them, how many leaves, roots do they have at that time)
b) If your source is Peru-flora, did you use the agar on method ? (Stephen used this method w/ flask from Glen Decker w/ success)

-All the variations in potting mixes:
a) single material mix
b) multiple material mix

-Light level
a) sunlight (direct, indirect, foot candle)
b) artificial lighting (type of light, how much)
c) both source

-Water
a) water schedule
b) sit in water or not, if it is , how high, what potting mix is used with it ?
c) type of water (what can you get away with in term of how pure the water is, tab water)
d) do you provide extra humidity, how ?

-Fertilizer
a) did you apply any at the compot stage ?
b) how much, how often ?
c) do you flush after fertilize, how long after ?

-Extra in mix
a) (such as oyster shell by Stephen) what else ?
b) dolomite lime, how much of it, where do you buy this . Can we substitute it w/ crushed calcium supplement from pill
c) does the Dolomite change the pH ?
d) how do you get the pH to be 7.9 (what do you add to distilled water, RO water to get this pH) without putting in anything that the kovachii can not tolerate?
e) should we mix some clay into the medium?

-Temperature
a) what is the highest temperature you manage to get away with ( how)
b) the lowest temperature for you.

WHAT INTRIGUES ME ARE THE PICTURES BY KYLE ON STEPHEN’S WEB SITE
One picture shows the plant on almost bare lime stone, the other one shows it immerses in black gooey mud.
I wonder if this is the clay that is described by certain source.

Information about the nature environment of kovachii varies slightly from different authors.
Below is the information from one expert on the subject. [From a lecture by Mr Croezen] :
In their natural environment the plants are found at 1900m[6,233 ft] elevation 5 degrees South of the equator in lush tropical hillsides. Precipitation starts at 800m elevation, but the cloud cover producing the rain-forest environment needed by P.kovachii is at about 1900m. Phragmipedium boisserianum is also found in this habitat.
Rainfall varies from a minimum of 60 cm [23.6 in] per month to 169 cm [66 in] per month and relative humidity is 80-90%. Low humidity causes the stigmas of the flowers to dry out and become unreceptive.
The plants are growing in constantly wet up to 1/4 inch limestone pebbles mixed with 10% clay. The clay mix is no more than about a spade depth deep (30 cm). It has an overlay of sphagnum. This medium consists of 80% calcium carbonate, 60 ppm. of potassium and 1.6 ppm. of phosphorus.
The pH is 7.9.
Temperatures are from 22 to 24 degrees Celsius in the day [71.6 -75.2 degree F] to 12-15 degrees at night [53.6-59 degree F] . These temperatures vary by as little as two degrees per year, measured over a 30 year period!
The plants grow in East-West valleys on the South slopes(equivalent to North slopes in the Northern hemisphere) only and thus are in shade most of the day with some sun morning and afternoon. 2500 to 5000fc seems to suit them well.
It takes five months from the setting of a bud to an open flower! The plants can bloom twice per year whenever growths mature, usually in May and November. The flowers last three weeks on the plant if not pollinated and grow from up to 7 inches on opening to up to 8 inches ten days later. The shape changes from flat on opening to reflexed petals when mature. The colour varies from almost white to the desirable deep magenta shown in most pictures!
Alfredo Manrique grows his plants in the almost perfect climate of Lima, this way:
Potting Mix:
60% 1/4" gravel
20% perlite
10% fir bark
10% charcoal
Top dress w/ Chilean sphagnum
Water with rain water only contains 20ppm of solutes.
Fertilizer: 15-5-15 @ 200ppm
Humidity: more than 80%
Light: 2500fc
Air movement- fans on for 20 hours per day.
Temperature: 23 day/12 degrees Celsius night

very intersting Hien!!

Here are the cultural informations for my kovavhii:

-flask: no, it was young plants (~6 months after deflasking)

-grodan growcubes

-rainfall water added with domestic water (90uS/cm) + orchid focus (neutral, 300uS/cm) + superthrive (one drop per litre) each time, never let dry
pH is 7,0

-artificial light: >10000 lumen

-18 to 25°C in winter, 22 to 32°C in summer