I was wondering why no one has crossed a besseae flavum onto a red besseae to get regular vigourous growing seedlings. Then the next step is to breed these plants to get the yellow besseae with vigourous growth. They do this all the time with albino Paphs.

Paphman910

I think that has been done already but I'm not sure. Hopefully Tom of Fox Valley can weigh in!

Reply I got from Chuck Acker:

"The yellow form of besseae carries a recessive gene so when crosses with a standard besseae one will get a paler red/orange besseae, however, the flowers will be larger because the flavum besseae does breed size very well.

If you were to cross two yellows, you will get yellows. Same with crossing two reds, you will get reds."

But he does not give an answer to what happens when you cross the "paler red/orange besseae" with each other.

Paphman910

Terry Root may be the man to ask about flavum besseae breeding, although the Orchid Zone has no website.

Phrag albino genes may not work in the same way as paphs. Paph albinos (with a few exceptions) are an all-or nothing kind of thing and tend to follow simple Mendelian laws. Offspring will be albino or normal, not something in between.

Phrag besseae flavum, though, seems to operate differently. A hybrid produced from a flavum besseae parent tends to be paler than one made with a normally colored besseae parent. I dunno what causes this and it would be nice to hear a biochemist's perspective on the issue.

--Stephen

I got a reply from Chuck:
He said it is due to co-dominant genes. For example if you breed a purebred white carnation with a purebred red carnation you get pink.

I think there is more to the mystery.

Paphman910

Theres a guy who used to post here, Stock, who is a retired cytogenticist. I bet he would know the answer. It all depends on where the gene for albinoism is. Maybe he'll drop by and give us the answer...

But back to Chucks example, what happens then we breed two pink carnations together, we probably get 25% red, 25% white and 50% pink.

Kyle

Kyle:
What if you bred the pink with a pure white. You should get 50% white and 50% pink carnation flowers.

Paphman910

Hi Kyle, I haven't wandered away very far.
Chuck Akers reported comments about co-dominant genes is not too far off but the first statement that it is a recessive gene is not accurate and probably not what Chuck Acker said. It is a little more complex than that in Phrags. the yellow forms lack either an intact control gene to turn on the appropriate anthocyanin pigment system or else lacks that specific anthocyanin pigment allele. In crossing these to dark red forms, apparently both gene systems function but the dark red anthocyanins are diluted by the yellow anthocyanins and co-factors. If you line breed these, some plants should have more intense orange color. Little information is available but probably exists somewhere. Someone that has seen a lot of plants flower like Chuck or Terry Root probably knows what happens when you continue breeding with the progeny of the "flavum" form and the dark red form. The genetics of athocyanin pigments if Phrags in complex and far removed from simple Mendelian genetics. For one thing, the co-factor genes are not well understood, especially when dealing with yellow anthocyanins.

Paphman's idea for geting vigor into flavum forms should work if you want to go a couple of genertation and select for vigor. The color should come back to flavum level yellow in at least a portion of the progeny and if the genes for vigor are not coupled to the anthocyanin genes then vigor could be selected for apart from color.
Dean

Thanks Dean. That was what I was looking for. Maybe one day I will mess with breeding phrag besseae var flavum.

Paphman910