Howdy, does anyone know where I can get my hands on some flasks or compots of paph. fairrieanum? I can't seem to find these in smaller form. Any suggestions?

Doh, Bloomfield just came up....err I am dumb.

$130.00 for flask? That seems a bit steep for 20-25 plants....Or am I just dumb? and cheap?

$130 for 20-25 fairries is not bad at all. Bloomfield has 20-25 for $125.

There's allot of size and color variation in this species, so you may want to look at the parentage to see if you will like the particular variant the babies are coming from.

Another trick with fairreanum...assuming you have the normal coloratum form...if the buds develop at the coolest temperatures possible, they get a lot of red in the dorsal.....Take care, Eric

Hi - Just a add on to this one - I have had 2 of these both grew ok but both died after flowering - Just like Malipoense - They all had a new growth coming one the new growth was 1/2 size of flowering one but after flowered it just went backward --
has anyone else found this had to keep on growing ???
having a flask sounds great .
Billie

Another trick with fairreanum...assuming you have the normal coloratum form...if the buds develop at the coolest temperatures possible, they get a lot of red in the dorsal.....Take care, Eric

I know a trick to make the entire flower deep red, without dyes... totally biological, but maybe it would be considered cheating...

Did you try Antec Labs? They might have some flasks, and the breeding is the best.

Susan

Did you try Antec Labs? They might have some flasks, and the breeding is the best.

Susan

the best at what?

uhhhh...... :confused: slippers, maybe??:roll:

I don't want to step on any toes here, but this is a critical point which requires clarification. If you limit your area to candor, ny, sure they are the best. They are the walmart of Paphiopedilums. And quantity != quality. There are many smaller breeders out there with really amazing stuff. Just check out Sam Tsui. He is probably the best in the US right now. And also keep in mind that none of these people have any idea what they are doing except for their experience of it, and what they hope the progeny will look like. They pick good looking plants, sib or self or cross them, and cross their fingers. They do not have degrees in genetics or plant breeding, etc. Why do you think we haven't seen any stolonous sanderianum hybrids? Cloning? Molecular markers? If they knew how, they would do it, but they don't. But that will change in the future. What is currently available is well, laughable, if you knew what is possible.

Ok, I understand where you are coming from now. Your earlier post had me confused. And, yes, my earler "Antec" post was not that specific. I was referring to the Candor, NY slippers, and not those slippers that other breeders sell as an "Antec Cross," or some similar nomenclature. Please excuse my vagueness. As a self-proclaimed "newbee," I found their web page to be very informative and so many of their crosses are so exquisite. I just figured that Antec would = Candor in everyone's minds.

As for breeding and genetics, I'm aware that so many new and amazing breakthroughs are possible. Part of it seems very exciting. However, I do have my reservations. For some reason (at least in my mind) cloning something so unique and rare like a specimen size Paphiopedilum Sanderianum (or Phrag Kovachi for that matter) would detract from its value and uniqueness; but that's just only my opinion and even that is not cast in stone.

Susan

Though I also find their website most useful and it is one of my trusted sources of information that, along with personal grower advice and Lance Birk's Paph. Manual, goes into the pool of knowledge that I use to make slipper-regarded choices, I admit, I do not buy plants from Antec. I bought once and was not overwhelmed.

I don't want to step on any toes here, but this is a critical point which requires clarification. If you limit your area to candor, ny, sure they are the best. They are the walmart of Paphiopedilums. And quantity != quality. There are many smaller breeders out there with really amazing stuff. Just check out Sam Tsui. He is probably the best in the US right now. And also keep in mind that none of these people have any idea what they are doing except for their experience of it, and what they hope the progeny will look like. They pick good looking plants, sib or self or cross them, and cross their fingers. They do not have degrees in genetics or plant breeding, etc. Why do you think we haven't seen any stolonous sanderianum hybrids? Cloning? Molecular markers? If they knew how, they would do it, but they don't. But that will change in the future. What is currently available is well, laughable, if you knew what is possible.

What do you mean by stolonous sanderianum hybrids? Just curious.

I agree, there isn't any 'best' breeder out there. And there a lot of very good ones. Sam is very good, and I would recommend his plants and breeding without hesitation. And he is a super nice guy, which never hurts. I would add Terry Root to the list of expert breeders. He also is a 'Walmart' of paphs, but he does do some very good stuff. His complex paph breeding is cutting edge (especially for whites and greens), although you can't buy much of it. For phrags, Chuck Acker seems to be just blowing everybody else away, from what I've seen. But I'd be happy to hear about other good phrag breeders.

It would be nice to get some genetic data for Paphs... But what is possible and what we can get funded for are two different things. If somebody wants to throw money around, I'll do the functional genomics part... I even have the technology to sequence the genome, if we throw enough money at it. Failing that, the best breeders do what breeders have been doing for millennia - try, fail, try, fail, try, succeed, try, fail... Practice never makes perfect, but eventually it does make better.

By stolonous, I mean the way the armeniacum and the like generate multiple growths very quickly by adventitious stolon.

Regarding genetics... ah, sequencing the genes would not be so hard. However, figuring out what they do would be. An worst of all, their C3 metabolism makes it a very slow process. And that would be just for one species. A better solution is molecular markers, which is what we are starting to work on at Nascent Orchids. We will be able to instantly tell if a plant has the traits we want right out of flask. No more growing to bloom the plant out. Developing them, however, takes some time and a lot of space, and very intelligent plant geneticists. Another technique is gene insertion. We will very soon be able to create true blue orchids, by inserting blue genes, and i don't mean levis. Or how about accelerated breeding techniques. Another technology we are developing will allow us to jump to whatever generation we want. For example, we could create a complex paph in a single shot, or say, backcross a certain plant back to another species for 100 generations, while preserving the traits we want with molecular markers. Another technique we have worked out is for creating albinism, but this is not easy and requires many many plants at first. Yes, that's right. Albinos of all your favorite species. Or how about cloning? The impossible made possible. Would you enjoy or hate the idea of being able to walk into Home Depot and get a sanderianum in bloom for $50? And who is ready for Phrag kovachii x Paph rothschildianum? All of this is possible, and will happen within my lifetime.

And let me ask you, do you think any of this is going to be brought to you by traditional breeding like today? :) Be excited. It's coming. But not from them.

By stolonous, I mean the way the armeniacum and the like generate multiple growths very quickly by adventitious stolon.

Regarding genetics... ah, sequencing the genes would not be so hard. However, figuring out what they do would be.
...

Perhaps _your_ armeniacum generate multiple growths very quickly... 8) Mine never seem to do so well.

Actually, if you sequence the genes, I can give you a good idea of what they do... Most of them, anyway. That is what bioinformatics is all about. Perhaps we should collaborate a bit.

Sounds like you have big plans. Hope you let us know when some of that stuff starts to pan out. I had plans to do some similar things once, but then life caught up with me. I barely have time to water my greenhouse these days... Maybe someday when I have tenure.

Hrm.. if we sequence the genes, you analyse, we insert markers, then insert the genes back into cells and clone them... that could be interesting. I'll talk with my scientist about it. He knows more than i do about all this technical crap.

As for armeniacum, if only they would stop creating new stolon and just flower... I think it is an 11 growth plant, and it has only flowered once. The leaves are narrow, and i even use extra fertilizer on it, and no go. The thing is just stupid i guess, it has tons of nbs growths and just keeps putting more on.

Yeah, hi Littlefrog and SteveT:

My suggestion (very technical -- the faint-hearted need not read on), free of charge, .......

is that you generate an EST (Expressed Sequence Tag) library from developing floral tissue from a basal Paph species. Use maybe something easy to flower, perhaps P. delenatii. Shoot for 10,000 or so unigenes (depending on available $$). Most unigenes should be readily annotated to genes from Arabidopsis + Populus genomes. Many will be of known function; some will likely reside in gene families known to control anthocyanin biosynthesis, or cell elongation (interesting features!). One can hope to transfer the EST information from one Paph species to all others in two ways: (1) sequence some unigenes across Paphiopedilum using conserved priming sites (generated incl. databased seqs.) to look for diagnostic nucleotide polymorphisms, and (2) use a microsatellite prediction program to generate potential expressed gene markers, which will likely be far better than non-coding microsatellites or AFLPs (or RAPDs) could ever be. Paph genomes are really quite large, so the amount of "junk" DNA in there (and its dynamics) might very well interfere with broadly compatible non-coding markers. Coding microsatellite markers, on the other hand, should be readily transferable so long as gene sequence divergence isn't too high.

And, to address your sexy Paph concepts,

Sure, you can score traits for 2 species + analyze markers for each, make F1s, score traits and markers, self to F2 and so on, scoring traits and markers each time, and get a QTL (quantitative trait locus) map for the traits of interest, which then can be selected for by screening markers in flasked progeny.......

And you can potentially use colchicine to increase the chances of obtaining a Paph/Phrag hybrid via allopolyploidization.....

And there's no reason why genes of interest can't be transformed into some life stage of the Paph (if this can be achieved stably) to generate over- or underexpression of RNAs, and therefore achieve new phenotypic traits (like "black" color by overexpressing a gene or two from the anthocyanin pathway)....

I'd say that $$$ and growing space are the prime factors, not the technology.

Best wishes :D

I think we need to start 3 different threads off of this one.

Genetics

Bhams problem with death after flowering,

And the "turning red" trick. Do you think that vinifierum is a standard callosum that is growing in an environment that forces red flowers?

I agree with you, Rick, about the new threads.

And let's not forget about Tadd's original question about where to find a flask of Paph fairrieanum!!:D

Susan

Great thread...

I think beskriver's points are on the mark -- I would definitely like to follow up on those thoughts.

I also agree that these should be posted on another thread -- may I suggest continuation of discussion over in the "Paph genetics" thread that I started awhile ago?

carsonchase

I can move the relevant posts over there if people wish.

Yeah, hi Littlefrog and SteveT:

is that you generate an EST (Expressed Sequence Tag) library from developing floral tissue from a basal Paph species. Use maybe something easy to flower, perhaps P. delenatii. Shoot for 10,000 or so unigenes (depending on available $$). Most unigenes should be readily annotated to genes from Arabidopsis + Populus genomes. Many will be of known function; some will likely reside in gene families known to control anthocyanin biosynthesis, or cell elongation (interesting features!). One

[...]

I'd say that $$$ and growing space are the prime factors, not the technology.

Best wishes :D

Yep, I do (or did) EST libraries for just that sort of thing, in various plant species (sugarbeets, cucumbers, apples...). And cross annotation with Arabidopsis (which is well annotated) is the way to go. There isn't that much divergence between any of the flowering plants, actually.

And $$$ is really my problem. You give me the money, I have the technology. I'm associate director of a functional genomics center... Really, it is just money... Come on, I know there is a zillionaire reading this...

Rob

I don't want to step on any toes here, but this is a critical point which requires clarification. If you limit your area to candor, ny, sure they are the best. They are the walmart of Paphiopedilums. And quantity != quality. There are many smaller breeders out there with really amazing stuff. Just check out Sam Tsui. He is probably the best in the US right now. And also keep in mind that none of these people have any idea what they are doing except for their experience of it, and what they hope the progeny will look like. They pick good looking plants, sib or self or cross them, and cross their fingers. They do not have degrees in genetics or plant breeding, etc. Why do you think we haven't seen any stolonous sanderianum hybrids? Cloning? Molecular markers? If they knew how, they would do it, but they don't. But that will change in the future. What is currently available is well, laughable, if you knew what is possible.

"best" is a rather subjective term. everybody has their personal sources. seems like someone is getting a little indignant here. all that genetic work you talk about is certainly viable but methinks funding for paphs might not be quite on par with the level of expenditure towards other applications of the molecular technology that has more (some) benefit towards society. hope you can get enough to successfully build the better paph, cowboy, and produce some real results to talk about. until then, i'll have to settle for flasks from guys without degrees who know how to use the toothpick. :therethere:

Hi Bozo!

I like you! I think you understood where I was coming from when I said what I said! I just said something in my (newbee) opinion about a good vendor for the fairrie flasks, that somehow opened up a bunch of new ideas. All the ideas that were spun off are good and should bring more positive energy to the forum.

I think I saw you on another forum? There was a "evil genius Sue" guy and another "Louis" guy who was in a white lab coat. Good Paph forum as well, with lots of good info and a great thread about compotting....

I never joined that forum. I was too new at the time, but would browse it and learned alot. I like this forum alot. Glad to see you here.

nice to meet you susan. not sure what forum you're referring to; i usually stay away from these things unless i find something of interest. this forum is interesting, to say the least.

... this forum is interesting, to say the least.

Glad you think so!

Bozo your avatar is kind of scary!

Bozo your avatar is kind of scary!

and your sig line also, freaks me out a little...

(TADD you are one to talk, you scary blue beast you!)
:poke:

Only because there isn't a fairrieanum avatar :)

Hi Tadd,

Heather & Pete helped me figure out how to post my own little avatar. I was able to use a digital shot of a Sukhakulii bloom I had before it got old and withered away.:('

If you have a shot of one of your Fairries, I'm sure it could be made into an avatar, if you want it.

Personally, I think I might miss the hulking, stalking, blue guy. Hmmmm, I wonder if it would be possible to keep the hulking guy, but to put a fairrie face on him???

If you have a shot of one of your Fairries, I'm sure it could be made into an avatar, if you want it.

Personally, I think I might miss the hulking, stalking, blue guy. Hmmmm, I wonder if it would be possible to keep the hulking guy, but to put a fairrie face on him???

Oh yeah, I think we need a little photoshop contest! :poke:

It would be fun!! Yes?? I would love to see that fairrie head on the lumbering hulk. I don't know whether it can be done. I know you can cut & paste on to another .jpg, but I don't know about putting a new face on a moving .gif. I think I lost my Photoshop and have not used it for a while. Might be able to find it. Have another program that might do the trick... I really don't know if I can do it, but I think someone out there must be much more capable.

But I thought if the the idea was acceptable, I can ask someone I know who is very good at digital imagery to try it. It is something he enjoys to do.

Just a thought. It's up to TADD, of course, if he would like to see the hulk with a new face!

I have zero pictures yet of my own! :( I know how can you love 'em without blooming them? I have seen some beauties live especially the few I saw at Marriott Orchids, and of course online. Hopefully soon! thanks for the advice, as soon as I can!

I love them too, Tadd. I don't have any in bloom. Mine are just wee seedlings; one of normal color and the other an alba. It will probably take a few years before I see flowers.

Patience!!

If anyone wants a photoshop contest, I'm up for the challenge.

ok, go for it Steve. Let's see what folks come up with, LOL!

Well, first someone needs to post the regular image we will be modifying. So... take your pick.

I don't have any photos of fairrieanum that I can post, and would be apprehensive of copying someone else's photo. There might be copyright issues involved if you lift someone's photo without their permission? Maybe someone has a photo they can contribute to the cause. OR, maybe somewhere out there there is a free download fairrieanum photo? :confused:

Of course, :idea: if someone would like to send me a blooming fairrieanum for keepers, I would be willing to take photos. It's tough work, but someone has to do it. :evil:

You can use my pic of fairrieanum. The color's a little off but it's a decent pic, otherwise. Will this info help in downloading?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/paphreek/Paphfairrieanum.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/paphreek/Paphfairrieanum.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y94/paphreek/Paphfairrieanum.jpg

I've no idea where Peter found the infamous animated "Blue Beast" - Pete?

I have no idea where I found the animated avatars. :confused: It's been a while so i don't remember.

I love this animated avatar :lol:

Hey Tadd - are you an AOS member? Orchids Mag. June issue (which I remarkably get before the month of June started!) has a nice photo of a couple fairrianum which even *I* think are rather nice!

Would you believe that my subscription ran out a month ago, and my wife has yet to renew it :mad: Yet we will never miss an issue of People or Entertainment Weekly (Both her mags). I will get my hands on a June issue shortly.

Don't get too excited, it isn't like the pullouts that Orchid Digest has or anything, but still a nice looking plant. (My SO refers to those pinups as Orchid Porn.) :lol:

I'll borrow it from my friend. Thanks for the heads up. I actually think I might skip the aos membership and go for Slipper Digest.

Slipper Digest? What? What is Slipper Digest? Can I get it?? I need that!