Paphiopedilum have a very hard outer coating on their seeds, and yet we have no confirmed microfossils of orchids. We have fossils of fern spores, why not orchid seeds? Orchids have the widest range possible in the plant kingdom, yet there are no confirmed fossils of any orchid, anywhere. We have found fossilized banana trees, and we know what a soft, herbaceous plant they are. Anybody have any idea why there are no orchid fossils?

Paphiopedilum have a very hard outer coating on their seeds, and yet we have no confirmed microfossils of orchids. We have fossils of fern spores, why not orchid seeds? Orchids have the widest range possible in the plant kingdom, yet there are no confirmed fossils of any orchid, anywhere. We have found fossilized banana trees, and we know what a soft, herbaceous plant they are. Anybody have any idea why there are no orchid fossils?

That is very interesting! I never knew that and I always thought orchids, especially slippers were primitive plants.

Hmmm -- maybe because every seed has produced a plant??? :laugh:

Paphiopedilum have a very hard outer coating on their seeds, and yet we have no confirmed microfossils of orchids. We have fossils of fern spores, why not orchid seeds? Orchids have the widest range possible in the plant kingdom, yet there are no confirmed fossils of any orchid, anywhere. We have found fossilized banana trees, and we know what a soft, herbaceous plant they are. Anybody have any idea why there are no orchid fossils?
There ARE fossils of orchids. I remember seeing a photo of a fossil of a primitive orchid in one of my books. I will do some browsing through my books for it, and report back.

That is very interesting! I never knew that and I always thought orchids, especially slippers were primitive plants.
As far as I know orchids are a quite young group of plants from an evolution point of view, and definitely not primitive. Slippers are the most primitive of orchids still alive today. The Apostasiaceae are by some seen as very primitive ancestors to orchids. A couple of genera are still alive today.

RZu.

I would love to see an orchid fossil! Very interesting!:cool:

As far as I know orchids are a quite young group of plants from an evolution point of view, and definitely not primitive. Slippers are the most primitive of orchids still alive today. The Apostasiaceae are by some seen as very primitive ancestors to orchids. A couple of genera are still alive today.

RZu.

True, they aren't as old as some other plants, but as far as flowering plants go, they are pretty old. The last estimate I read was perhaps as old as 80 million years ago, far older than was originially thought.

...one of the fossilized orchids is Protorchis monorchis. This is the only one I could find... to me, it looks kinda like a Pleurothallid orchid, but the roots, I really question on the fossil...

-PM

There are some scientific publications who're about plants that can be orchids. Propably the most important places were (orchid)fossils are found:
*Monte Bolca, near Verona, Italy: Eoceen (50 million years old)
*Florissant, Colorado, USA: Oligoceen (30 million years old)
*Willershausen, Niedersachsen, Germany : Plioceen (3 -4 million years old)
*Weimar-Ehringsdorf, Thüringen, Germany : Pleistoceen (100.00 years old)

I'll look for more details...

silverback

There are some scientific publications who're about plants that can be orchids. Propably the most important places were (orchid)fossils are found:
*Monte Bolca, near Verona, Italy: Eoceen (50 million years old)
*Florissant, Colorado, USA: Oligoceen (30 million years old)
*Willershausen, Niedersachsen, Germany : Plioceen (3 -4 million years old)
*Weimar-Ehringsdorf, Thüringen, Germany : Pleistoceen (100.00 years old)

I'll look for more details...

silverback

Interesting...Please tell us more...thnx

Hi everyone,

Sorry for the delay but here is the photo as promissed.

http://www.phragweb.info/_ForumPhotos/OrchidFossil.jpg

The information that accompanies the photo is:
(translated from German)

Eoorchis miocaenica Mehl.
The oldest fossil orchid evidence. It was found at Oehningen-Wangen near the Bodensee in freshwater chalkrocks. It is from the Upper Mioceen (approx. 15 mln years old).

All the best,

Rob Zuiderwijk

Wow! That is really interesting! Thanks!:cool:

WOW!
That looks really tiny & exciting!
Am an absolute ZERO with regards to fossils and I'm curious to know how the picture of the fossil on the left is reconstructed as shown! Is there a science to it or is it a mixture of science & imagination?
Thanks

Awesome...that is just so COOL...thnx Rob

Here is an article from the NY Times

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9D01E6DB103CF935A35756C0A9659C8B63

Very interesting, both the article posted by Ron and the fossil photos posted by Rob. Thanks!

Thanks for the fossil pic Rob. Very interesting. I took a course in paleobotany way back when and enjoyed it immensely. One memoriable field trip to Alabama involved collecting leaf fossils of various angiosperm trees dating to about 100 million years ago. They were deposited in layers of clay. On occasion you found reproductive parts at which my professor would get very excited, nearly grabbing the specimen out of your hand, and start making declarations like, "ah, this is a magnolia relative, perhaps XXXXXX, seen it before, very nice condition! You can keep it" or "let me see that, wow! I've never seen anything like it! This must go back to the lab for further study! Sorry, I'm keeping this one!" And so on. Later, I was told that a new species was described from one of those unknown finds. That was cool.

Thanks also for the article Ron. Orchids are surprising plants, that is for sure.

Tom

Here is another interesting article on the age of orchids.

http://www.rbgkew.org.uk/science/orchids/whystudy.html

I see that the most primitive of the orchids, Neuwiedia, Apostasoidae (spelling?), Vanilla, and the Cypripedioideae (especially Selenipedium) are the link from the other families in Asparagales (Lilaceae, etc.)... but this has been known for some time... correct? (refer to Dressler's work; 'The Orchids, Natural History and Classification')... except we have some recent DNA work to back up the older theory?

(Yucca, Agave, Aloe, Hemerocallis, Amaryllis, etc., are contained within Family Lilaceae)...

-Pat

Thanks, Ron. I am enjoying all these informative links!

Hi Ron,
Thanks for the informative links! :cool:

another article

http://www.mail-archive.com/orchids@orchidguide.com/msg07607.html

another article

http://www.mail-archive.com/orchids@orchidguide.com/msg07607.html

Thanks Ron! :cool:

Thanks Ron for the links!