Paphgirl, are you getting one? They are getting hard to find.

LOL! I was looking around last night!

(how do you know these things?)

LOL! I was looking around last night!

(how do you know these things?)

Great minds think alike! :lol:

Still looking around, but nothing yet....

Ecuagenera still has them. If you really want one, e-mail them and see when the next time they are coming to the States is. I got mine from them and it is doing very well.
Jon

Jon, has yours bloom for you, yet? Any pics?

Hasn't bloomed yet...but definately on the watch list for spikes. I am currently growing it warm, but may move it to the cold room with my besseae. Believe me, you'll see pics when it does something.
Jon

Thanks! :lol:

Cool! Thanks! :D

I've seen them on the Orchids Limited list as a sub species of besseae.

I've seen them on the Orchids Limited list as a sub species of besseae.

Thanks, I'll check that lead out also, though I didn't see it the other day, but I could very well have been skimming through too quickly.

Heather,

You might want to try Gypsy Glen Orchids in Beaver, PA. It is run by Dennis D'Alessandro himself. If he does not have them I am sure he can put you on to a source.

Thank you!

Heres one, in spike, on ebay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=42218&item=4375677408&rd=1

Kyle

Oh, hey Kyle, thanks a lot! I hadn't made the e-bay rounds yet this week. Anyone familiar w/ that seller? I know I've seen the name before but don't remember what plant it was associated with.

I have mixed feelings about plants from Ebay. I'm a bit nervous about getting something like D'alessandroi, when it is known to be hard to find a true one, from an Ebay seller. I guess I generally tend to go w/ other vendors. Some ebayer's seem reputable, but others not so much...
Curious to hear other's thoughts on this, actually!

They spike on a small plant. What does the flower look like? Is it like a besseae.

Eric, the flowers resemble besseae flowers but the petals are narrower and more star shaped and they are multifloral, unlike the regular besseaes.

Oh, hey Kyle, thanks a lot! I hadn't made the e-bay rounds yet this week. Anyone familiar w/ that seller? I know I've seen the name before but don't remember what plant it was associated with.


Hi Heather,

I guess it's a little late now since the auction is closed, but I really like that seller. I've purchased from him in the past and the plants were always terrific.

I think he may be posting more P. dalessandroi as he got some from Ecuagenera when they were here last.

He's definately one of the good sellers on ebay. There are several that aren't so great and should be avoided, but not sure if this is the place to air that info (or is it?).

Lien

Thank you Lien,
since I am hearing several reports about these coming from Ecuagenera, and I like the idea of getting one from the source, per se, I think I will email them. I bet they are coming to Redlands in a few weeks. Does anyone know if they ship when they come to the US? Obviously not something I could pick up from them in Florida.

I did check OL but see none listed now. Haven't emailed D'alessandro but thinking on that also.

Does anyone know if they ship when they come to the US?

Yes, they will bring the plants and ship them to you. I've ordered twice from them. The way they calculated the paperwork and shipping both times was as follows:

Paperwork and shipping into the US 15% of total
Shipping to your door 5% of total

Lien

Heather,

Here's one that came from Ecuagenera that's currently in bloom, to give you an idea of what you can expect from them.

http://www.lienluu.com/d.jpg
http://www.lienluu.com/d2.jpg

Lien

Eric, the flowers resemble besseae flowers but the petals are narrower and more star shaped and they are multifloral, unlike the regular besseaes.

Is that really true? The multifloral part, I mean. A large, relatively old besseae will often be multifloral. Does delassandroi branch? I've never seen one with branched inflorescences, although I may have never seen a really mature one. I'm pretty sure I've seen 'delassandroi' labelled as such that came out of a regular besseae cross. The ones with narrow petals and poor form as delassandroi, and the good ones as besseae. That is cheating... And immoral. But I'm pretty sure it has happened...

I've not managed to convince myself that delassandroi is anything more than a variety of besseae. It is reasonably distinct from besseae, at least the line bred ones we see now. But it isn't really too distinct from the original collected besseae. Not enough to merit species rank, in my opinion. But then again, I'm a professed 'lumper', and not a taxonomist.

Yes, I have seen an older more matured d'allessandroi in multifloral bloom on branching spikes and it was just spectacular!

Rob,

I had two specimen sized P. besseae, with the "traditional" besseae form, with 20+ growths, and once they get to be that size, the spikes branch. Those two plants are two different clones and when I first got them many years ago, they were single growth and for the first few years, they never branched, but as they got to be larger plants, they started branching.

The P. dallesandroi I have have branched on smaller plants.

As with you, I believe that P. besseae and P. dallesandroi are varieties, rather than distinct species. But then again, my area of study is in avian genetics and taxonomy, not orchids.

Having said this however, I think what we are witnessing is speciation in progress (this applies not with just plants but we see it with birds and any other organism as well). Speciation of course is an ongoing event and I think many forget this. As populations become more and more isolated they start to develop their own characteristics and in time, diverge from the original population so much that they are no longer the same "species".

The statement that dalessandroi being a poor specimen of besseae however, I don't think to be totally accurate. While it may look less appealing (to some people) than besseae, it is a true breeding form, rather than a cull out of a number of plants. (It may be true in some instances, particularly where interbreeding has occured in one or both of the parent's lineage).

Anyhow, enough for now.

Lien

Rob,
...
As with you, I believe that P. besseae and P. dallesandroi are varieties, rather than distinct species. But then again, my area of study is in avian genetics and taxonomy, not orchids.

Having said this however, I think what we are witnessing is speciation in progress (this applies not with just plants but we see it with birds and any other organism as well). Speciation of course is an ongoing event and I think many forget this. As populations become more and more isolated they start to develop their own characteristics and in time, diverge from the original population so much that they are no longer the same "species".

The statement that dalessandroi being a poor specimen of besseae however, I don't think to be totally accurate. While it may look less appealing (to some people) than besseae, it is a true breeding form, rather than a cull out of a number of plants. (It may be true in some instances, particularly where interbreeding has occured in one or both of the parent's lineage).

Lien
I think it is a speciation event in process as well. That is about the only way I like to think of variety (or subspecies), anyway. If a population is isolated and consistent enough to be a subspecies, it will eventually become distinct enough to be a valid species.

Perhaps 'a poor specimen of besseae' isn't quite what I meant for delassandroi. It isn't, however, the form most want to breed with. There are good ones and less good ones. And interbreeding has certainly occured. I remember that several crosses were advertized as the 'regular form' x 'the paute form' (which if I recall was what we used to call delassandroi - easier to spell, anyway). All the progeny were labelled besseae... Many of those have probably been used in further crosses. The goal, of course, was to increase the flower count of besseae. Perhaps they succeeded. Perhaps that is why some of our besseae are multifloral...

Thank you for the photos, Lien, and the interesting conversation, everyone! Finally got to READ this thread that I saw building hours ago. Ah, the anticipation almost killed me!

Here's what I heard from Glen Decker (Piping Rock Orchids) when I asked if he had them (my Jason Fischer from him has della (cute nickname, no?) in the breeding.)


and, most of the plants that are listed as
dalessandroi are not. I had received a batch from the Orchid Zone and they were just
the basic Ecuadorian from of besseae. I'm hoping to get a couple of mature plants soon, so I can sib them and get some plants going. Until then ...

To me, besseae and d'allessandroi are 2 distinctive species, very different looking flowers and different flowering habit. So, there I said it! :cheeky:

To me, besseae and d'allessandroi are 2 distinctive species, very different looking flowers and different flowering habit. So, there I said it! :cheeky:

Yep, and I finally admitted publicly that P. Gloria Naugle, frankly, turns my stomach! :Yuck:

Apparently, we are all feeling comfy enough with each other to be honest and agree to disagree. :wink:
Now, mind you all, I won't hold it against you if you DO like GN. To each his/her own!

One taxonomist's species is another's subspecies, is another's variety. The point for you guys is that you see consistent differences in dallesandroi and besseae that are heritable. The species name Phrag dallesandroi is officially published, so go ahead and use it if you want. But so is the name besseae var. dallesandroi, so go ahead and use THAT one if you want. Same entity, different names.

you don't like naugle? :disappointed:

you don't like naugle? :disappointed:

Me?
Yeah, probably my very least favorite hybrid of all time.
What can I say? :confused:

you don't like naugle? :disappointed:

Me?
Yeah, probably my very least favorite hybrid of all time.
What can I say? :confused:

You're not alone, I don't really care for that hybrid either but that is my personal preference. :cheeky:

do you two ever disagree? in this day of online mayhem, maybe you're just multiple personalities in the same body? :ohmy:

do you two ever disagree?

Oh yes! all the time (just not generally about slippers!)....I'm still trying to get him to change the logo....

:wink:

Yes, we disagree all the time but we agree to disagree on many things other than slippers. :lol:

Yes, we disagree all the time but we agree to disagree on many things other than slippers. :lol:

And, bribing him with spicy pistachios works WONDERS!!! :poke:

Hi All. Not sure if I read in going through these threads but I do believe in one of the AOS Orchids magazines, Phrag besseae and d'allesondroi have different chromosome counts. Wouldn't that make them different species?

I talked to Erik Sauer of River Valley Orchids here in Ohio and he said he still had a couple laying around for sale. I didn't ask if they were seedlings or divisions or the price so you should e-mail him if you would like to know more. I am pretty sure they are still some of the ones he got from Glen Lehr.
His e-mail can be found on his website, just google River Valley Orchids...I don't have his info off hand.

Jon

Thanks very much Jon, for the info!

Wow how have I missed this thread? So Heather are ya gonna get one? I can send ya some Glorai Naugles if you want :poke: :evil:

Wow how have I missed this thread? So Heather are ya gonna get one? I can send ya some Glorai Naugles if you want :poke: :evil:

Whew - we ARE sarcastic aren't we? LOL!

So.. how exactly did you get from besseae to GN? :confused:
I would like a della, one of these days but have not gotten one yet.

"Just doing my job ma'am" You said previously that Gloria Naugle is your least favorite hybrid of all time :therethere:

"Just doing my job ma'am" You said previously that Gloria Naugle is your least favorite hybrid of all time :therethere:'

Yes, so what are you saying, you don't like besseae? Oh come now really? I cannot believe that. But it's cool if that is the case as I said before, I understand and heck, you also like those fairrieanum, so we clearly have diffenent tastes, which is cool!

You know the besseaes you could actually grow w/ your space issues, Tadd.
To each their own - and that's a great thing - it keeps us all going and growing and conversing! Love to agree to disagree, it is all the same in the end. :D

here is Eric's new website:

http://home.earthlink.net/~rvo3015/

Hmmm, I tried to email him through that site and the email bounced. :confused:

Heather, I would give him a call. He'll call you back. I usually call him since he is so close. Jon may have his email addy.

??????
I tried his e-mail and got a reply. I just copied what was on the main page and composed an email with it and he sent me back a reply.

Jon

Thanks, I'll try again, I had clicked on the link. :confused:

Ok, my email seems to have gone through this time. Thanks guys!

Hey, so are you Ohio-ites near the Union Shaker Village site? I think Watervliet is near/in Dayton also. I haven't been to the villages in Ohio and Kentucky (Pleasant Hill and South Union) but I hear Pleasant Hill is one of the most spectacular. We have villages in the towns where I live and work, and a building/collection at the museum where I work.

Ok, so despite my long diatribe against box stores, I bought that d'allesandroi that was in spike on ebay. An attempt to drive the price up failed rather miserably. I'm out of ebaying practice. :roll:

Oh well. At least I won't have to wait long to find out if it is the real thing (it had better be!) And, I finally get to see/have a red besseae in bloom in person.

A hypocritical congratulations :poke: :clap: :poke: Enjoy it!

:disappointed: I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to be a regular besseae and you already have 2. If it is the real deal, you better send me the first div. :cheeky:

Yeah, yeah, :disappointed: I know...
I'm a hypocrite, but at least I have the strength to admit it. :D

Here's a photo of that same P. d'allesandroi that I pictured earlier that came from Ecuagenera. Someone asked if "they really branch". I noticed today that it is starting to branch. I got it this year from Ecuagenera as a two growth plant. One growth came into spike soon after I got it and that is the one pictured that is starting to branch. When I took it out to take this picture, I noticed that the second growth was in spike also. I pinched both of the spikes off to give the plant a chance to focus its energy on growing instead of blooming, since it's recently imported and a little "rough".

http://www.lienluu.com/sof/dalspike.jpg

Very nice! My yellow bess is also branching. :-dance:

Ok, so despite my long diatribe against box stores, I bought that d'allesandroi that was in spike on ebay. An attempt to drive the price up failed rather miserably. I'm out of ebaying practice. :roll:

Oh well. At least I won't have to wait long to find out if it is the real thing (it had better be!) And, I finally get to see/have a red besseae in bloom in person.

the only way to save is the solitary snipe with 5 seconds left.

I was amazed to find out that they have programs that snipe for you. Pretty Awesome!

I just noticed how thick your d'allessandroi stem is unlike the regular besseae skinny spikes. I guess it has to be thick and sturdy to hold all the open flowers at once. Do post another pic when the flowers open.

nice Lien :-dance:

Very nice! My yellow bess is also branching.


Can you take a photo of that, when you get a chance?

Lien

Can you take a photo of that, when you get a chance?

Lien

Hi, Lien!

I posted the updated photo in the Phragmipedium Gallery in the Phragmipedium besseae flavum post/photo. Thanks for looking!

I can't quite tell about my spike diameter. It looks a little wider, I think, than regular besseae, but not so thick as Lien's. Not as thick as my IE though for sure.

I can't quite tell about my spike diameter. It looks a little wider, I think, than regular besseae, but not so thick as Lien's. Not as thick as my IE though for sure.

Heather has your dal opened yet?

:roll:
No. Growl. I think I'm going to lose the darn spike. Should not have repotted, apparently, the stress of that and the natural division seems to have skunked it. However, it now has two new starts growing quickly.

:roll:
No. Growl. I think I'm going to lose the darn spike. Should not have repotted, apparently, the stress of that and the natural division seems to have skunked it. However, it now has two new starts growing quickly.

Oh no, that's too bad. Perhaps best to have left it but too late for that now. I remember reading an old thread where a few members said that they found Phrags grew better in very deteriorated medium.

http://www.rainbowcomputers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=264&highlight=#264

specifically eric's message where he says:

"I also find that most phrags love thoroughy decayed media that would kill a paph in a week"

Thanks for the sympathy, Lien - yeah, it is toast. Came home last night and the spike/sheath had turned brown. The "bud" is still green but I doubt for long. Well, I suppose I'd rather have a healthy plant but geesh, too frustrating. Poor sad thing! :cry:

Heather your new sign on name should be MASTER BLASTER :lol: :poke: :lol: DISCLAIMER: The previous was a joke, and should be taking as one. I feel your pain, just lost a bud on a small niveum, and a junky hybrid I was looking forward to seeing. I am a sloppy waterer.

So, When that dalessandroi divided itself, you may recall there were some new actively growing roots. Things have continued on well, and in the interest of science, I've been wanting to experiment. I have one of each of my other two besseae varieties in S/H, so I decided to repot this plant last night in S/H, since the root growth is so active. By the way, this was in a 1.5" square pot, and so the roots had pretty much gotten all around the bottom already!

Here's the root comparison:

6/2/05
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/ahmcd33/7b070e4e.jpg

9/28/05
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y134/ahmcd33/cad47f8c.jpg

Wow great job! We should call you the ROTO-ROOTER.....

uh, no Tadd, we shouldn't. :roll:
You and your nicknames! LOL!

Look at those happy roots!!! :clap: :clap:

Looks great! Mine doesn't look like it is going to make it. :(

Looks great! Mine doesn't look like it is going to make it. :(

Really???
Your's had the better roots, too, but not as actively growing, just more/bigger.
Since I have another larger established one, I figured I might as well "play" with this one. That way also I can compare all three besseae varieties with regards to conventional mix vs. S/H.

Yes good roots but the 2 new growths were very very tiny, remember? Now, only one growth remains and still very tiny.

One of my two new growths never did much, the other took off and is growing like a weed. Well, time will tell, I suppose!

The tag on this plant I purchased in bloom said "Phrag. besseae" -- but it sure looks like d'alessandro. I understand the disagreements on whether d'alessandro is a form of besseae or a species in it's own right. But can I safely call it d'alessandro (besseae, or not)? It was branched with flowers on each branch, but I would call it a sequential bloomer, not multifloral.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a285/DotBarnett/Phrag_besseaedallesandro.jpg

The petal shape sure looks like those of d'alessandroi's. One of my red besseaes first flowering had similar looking narrow petals but the second flowering had the usual rounded petals of besseaes.

Dot,

Based on the flower I would say it's a besseae. There is no yellow in the petals in the centre and the pouch is the wrong colour in my opinion to be a dalessandroi. In the dalessandroi their is more yellow in the pouch giving it an orangy colour.

In any case a nicely shapped flower you have there.

RZu.

Dot,

Based on the flower I would say it's a besseae. There is no yellow in the petals in the centre and the pouch is the wrong colour in my opinion to be a dalessandroi. In the dalessandroi their is more yellow in the pouch giving it an orangy colour.

In any case a nicely shapped flower you have there.

RZu.

Thanks, Rob. I wondered about that. I compared my photo with those on your site, and there are similarities and differences. For instance, look at the color of the column/anther cap -- it is more like the d'alessandro than the besseae, as is the shape of the petals. But the yellow color is missing, as you noted. Could it be a cross between the two???