Can anyone tell me if Paph jackii can be *legally* purchased in the US, and if so, what grower might I contact for information? Although some consider jackii a variant of malipoense, I think that jackii is viewed as a distinct species for CITES purposes.[b]

Welcome to the forum!

There was one vendor who had them advertised a while back, but when asked about whether it was a true jackii, it was shortly after that removed from the listing....there's another thread around here somewhere...I think the Paph. anitum thread has some info on illegal plants in general, if you want to check that out but not much jackii discussion there.

http://www.rainbowcomputers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=174&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=illegal+species&start=0

Yes, thanks -- I saw that thread, and I saw ref. to Paph. hangianum, which is in fact illegal in the US unless someone can produce a valid CITES export permit from Vietnam. Of course, flasks are sold via Taiwan and elsewhere -- but without the proper paperwork, these are illegal EVEN THOUGH they come through as flasks. The CITES exemption for flasks only applies when the materials in the flask are of legal PROVENANCE, i.e., offspring of species that have been granted at least one export permit to the US from the Vietnamese government. If no permit has been issued, flasks of uncertified hangianum or jackii would officially contain plants that do not exist, but that are illegal to sell or even to own in collections once imported, by whatever name. A bit of a twist, but true. And this of course holds for Prag. kovachii -- no flask imports legal unless the Peruvian govt. produces a CITES certification for the species. And, believe it or not, the same holds for Mexipedium -- to my knowledge, no CITES docs have ever been issued by Mexico! The feds for some reason overlooked Mexipedium, but have slammed down hard on kovachii. The former has been a conservation success, since the original population (FAR fewer individuals than kovachii) may now be extinct in nature, but offsping are widespread, despite being genetically depauperate (prob. due to one introduction, just like the original Paph. delenatii).

CITES is about trade, not about conservation per se. Slipper growers need to realize this. You don't see African violets listed in CITES, despite the fact that their species are INCREDIBLY endangered in Tanzania and Kenya -- that's because African violet species AREN'T IN TRADE -- everybody wants the "pretty" hybrids, and most could care less about the species, so no need for trade regulation.

Back to slippers -- Believe it or not, CITES actually considers, for their purposes, sib-crosses of Paphs and Phrags to be "hybrids". That's because basically no breeding program in captivity could mimic the genetic admixtures of natural populations.

Bottom line: does anyone have CITES paperwork for jackii, as a species, from Vietnam? I would be very interested to know, because then flasks just might be legal for me to import. Same goes for hangianum - does paperwork actually exist? For the sake of the rest of us, please come forward!

I researched this, and yes, there is one and only one such permit.

In 1999, Paphiopedilum malipoense var. jackii was exported from Vietnam to the US, as an appendix I plant. 4 plants total. Import purpose was for commercial trade, and the import source was from confiscated/siezed plants.

There you go.

So CITES paperwork on these 1999 jackii plants came from the Vietnamese government? The US could have issued an Appendix I permit, but if Vietnam didn't issue a valid CITES export permit, the plants weren't legally imported. An annoying possibility! If the permit was indeed obtained, do you know who may be propagating and selling flasks/seedling progeny?

What about those US hangianum plants? Vietnamense seems to be in (and foreign flasks OK), but so far as I can tell, no Vietnamese export permits have been issued for hangianum.

If i'm not mistaken, Mexipedium is not listed on Appendix I. Of course, it was originally described as Phragmipedium, but moving it into its own genus, Mexipedium would 'de-classified" it from Appendix I.

Lien

Sorry Lien, but for CITES purposes, Mexipedium is considered Phragmipedium (a synonym, and in fact the first genus to which the species xerophyticum was assigned). As such, Mexipedium (or Phrag, depending on what you want to call it) xero is still very much an Appendix I plant -- no international trade under usual conditions. If no legal Mexican CITES docs were ever issued, then no exports of flasks or plants from the US are legal. But again, CITES seems to tolerate Mexipedium trade while having fits over other plants. Figure that one. Maybe because Mex is already extinct in nature and no harm can be done further re: international trade.

So CITES paperwork on these 1999 jackii plants came from the Vietnamese government? The US could have issued an Appendix I permit, but if Vietnam didn't issue a valid CITES export permit, the plants weren't legally imported. An annoying possibility! If the permit was indeed obtained, do you know who may be propagating and selling flasks/seedling progeny?

What about those US hangianum plants? Vietnamense seems to be in (and foreign flasks OK), but so far as I can tell, no Vietnamese export permits have been issued for hangianum.

Not true. The country that imports them has the final say. For example, if there are suddenly smuggled orchids found, the US FWS can decide to not send the plants back to the range country and just send them on to a PRC. The country where the plants are currently is the one that has the power. If vietnam never issued the permit, but the US said OK once they are here, they are here legally. It is another matter entirely if the US will issue a re-export permit.