I thought it would be better to post this photo in a different topic. Hope you guys are not tired of seeing them! :lol:
Left: Paph roebellinii 'Grace' AM/AOS x Candor Red Streamers' AM/AOS
Right: Paph philippinense 'Angel Wings' HCC/AOS x 'Easter Parade' HCC/AOS
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6o1l1/rp.jpg
Thanks for looking!

Hi Pete,

Great photos and wonderful looking plants!

I was wondering, is there any chance you could take close up photos of each flower to see the difference between the two?

Thanks
Lien

both look pretty much the same for me.. both are very nice ... :D

Hi, Lien!

I'll post the close up pics sometime later today.

Piscri, the flowers are different and look at the growths in the picture, they are totally different. Paph phil has broader and wider leaves and the roeb has longer and slender leaves with more pointed tips. I do have another roebellinii that is much more compact with shorter leaves and rounded tips.

:clap: :Party: :-dance: magnificent

Ok, here are the side by side pics as requested. Paph roeb on the left and Paph phil on the right.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze6o1l1/ro0.jpghttp://mysite.verizon.net/vze6o1l1/p.jpg

phil flowers are larger but roeb flowers have slightly longer and narrower, more twisted petals. The phil pic was taken 2 years ago and the petals are longer this flowering season. The shape of their staminods are also different. phil pouches are larger more helmet shaped and roeb pouches are smaller narrower with a more pointed tip. Hope this helps!

That is helpful for me Peter.

I noticed that very different pointy pouch for the Too Goo Doo phil I have. It also has longer petals than my other plant. I haven't looked too close at the staminodes. The overall flower dimensions are otherwise very similar.

Your description of the differences is excellent, really helps me to identitfy and look closely. Thanks!

I also think the differences in the plants are very interesting.

Thank you Peter! It's really helpful to have photos and discussions like this I think!

Lien

Pete,

Thanks for clarifying the difference between philippinense and roebelinii... I'm a huge fan of these two but have never quite gotten an answer on what the differences are that was as clear as you just gave...

The other thing is that I guess becoz many consider roeb to be only a variety of phil, then with all the crossing between the two, these differences may disappear... and then how will we know if we have a phil or a roeb :(

Again thanks for sharing your pics and knowledge.

Cheers
tim

Tim,

Yes, there are phil and roeb hybrids out there and I have seen plenty and that is why it took me years to finally find a true phil that is close to what you'll find growing in the Phillippine jungles. The same goes for the roebellinii.

Thank you all for the nice comments! :) Oh don't forget, there is another one, laevigatum. :roll: More confusion.

bream and cribby both consider laevigatum to be philippinense. if those two agree, you know it's gotta be true.

I'm not a big fan of any taxos and to me, laevigatum closely resembles roebellinii more so than philippinense. So, in my house, under my roof they are separate species no matter what they say. :lol: :lol:

Sometimes I think it would be easier to just stick one name on it.. ie philippinense, however I guess it's nice to'keep' for posterity the different varieties/species of this complex... so from what I can gather

roebelenii differs from philippinense in the longer petals. laevigatum and philippinense are similar in petal length but the former should have less hairs and the petals hang down... as oppose to more horizontal... or is it the other way around....

ppl have commented on the variances in staminoid shape as well, but well... I'm not really sure...

oh and leaf shape or rather width may also be a point of differentiation...

and to top it all off.... there is another variety palawense which is basically philippinense but smaller...

it's all too confusing sometimes and I think i might just go have another cup of tea... :confused:

cheers
tim

yes, I was thinking of palawense also...then you can throw in the whole aureum thing and just about go over the edge w/ all the varieties of the philippinense family...I have a lot of them....5! Well, will see for myself when they bloom....

yes, I was thinking of palawense also...then you can throw in the whole aureum thing and just about go over the edge w/ all the varieties of the philippinense family...I have a lot of them....5! Well, will see for myself when they bloom....

Yes, Paph pawalense is basically philippinense, slightly smaller in size and the only major difference is geographically where they are found in the wild.

The blooms are actually quite a bit smaller than I had though. Never ceases to amaze me, seeing these blooming in person.

Paph phil has the largest flowers in the group and their flowers are bigger more bulkier looking than the rest but roeb has the longest twistier and narrower petals. Their petal stance depend on the plants, I have seen some with more horizontal petals than the others. Paph roeb flowers are small when the first open but they double in size very quickly and their petals can reach over 8+".

Both are very nice clones of the species.

IMHO .. I would consider these as examples of the same species - philippinenese ... Although I am not a taxonomist , I don't think differences in appearance in leaf form as well as plant size can be considered valid criteria for differenciating them from one another ... I personally think they should be considered as clonal differences only.

Clonal difference can be due to geographic reason where they come from.
Even though you carefully examine staminodes of different individual plants from the same source, there can be differences in shape, form and colour as well...

phlippinense from palawense is having smaller flower size , shorter petal length and paler colour overall. However, it is having gigantic plant size the same as philippinense from other places although leaves are a bit narrower... If a variety name could be given according to these significant differences from other philippinense , we will have another variety again ... That's why I don't really think philippinense with horizontal held petals can be justified as another variety ... just like roebellii is labelled as a "variety" of philippinense which is having more twisty petals...

Besides the longer more twisted petals of the roebellinii, there are clearly many other differences between a phil and roeb which I have already described. So, in my collection, they are separate species. :lol:

Put a roebellinii and a phil side by side and you will never think there are the same again. I will post some var photo's later this week when my Phil collections hits 4. Alba's on there way!

Phil

var roebellinii---
http://www.metama.com/photos/philippinese_01_aug18th.jpg
http://www.metama.com/photos/philippinese_03_aug18th.jpg

Phil, that is absolutely drop-dead Gorgeous!!!!

I love everything about it!!! Can't wait to see the pics of the other varieties.

Cheers
tim

WOW :clap: :clap: :clap: That is stunning...all of them

Whatever you call them, I like, like! :clap: I grew phillippiense in Florida before I took the trip east, but that roebellinii is fantastic!

Super petal length - do you know the clonal name?
Would be a nice one to cross with sanderianum for a sweet Wendy-like Michael Koopowitz!

Beautiful roeb Phil :clap:
Love that tall dorsal!

Super petal length - do you know the clonal name?
Would be a nice one to cross with sanderianum for a sweet Wendy-like Michael Koopowitz!

This plant was a divisions off a growers breeding table, yet no clonal name is on the tag. He had a hard time letting go of the pot, when he sold it to me:) The plants was known then better petals then in the photo but they were over 7 1/2 inches at the time. With some luck it should make it to the show table but it looks like it need another season before it puts up two blooms at a time. I should give them a call.

Its funny, when I got this plant I was looking for a mature Michael Koopowitz. I think Wendy's put me over the edge so on Wednesday 2 Michael Koopowitz and some Michael Koopowitz crossed back to Sanders are arriving.

Very informative - and helpful

Thanks for posting

Cheers
Stephan