When I first started buying orchids 5 years ago, I got sucked into a society that was all about showing and getting plants awarded. They were obsessed with awards and glory. Needless to say, I didn't stick around long and never showed an orchid I bought. These people bought dozens of plants in spike, submitting a large amount of them for judging, and if the plants didn't win an award they either sold them off at a loss or neglected those plants until they died making room for even more new potential "award winners."

Now, I read comments here and there about judging, and it makes me sad. I now have no desire to ever have an orchid judged. The comparison of sizes sounds funny to me. What I mean is, if an orchid has good form and is nicely colored that doesn't mean it is a "good" flower. To say an orchid can't achieve high awards because it doesn't measure the same as the largest award winner is like saying that a miniature dog breed can't win a dog show because it is not the same size as a bull mastif :)

If judging of plants keeps pushing them toward bigger flowers with wider petals and deeper color, won't all orchid blooms eventually be completely round and maroon?

Someone straighten me out and explain this to me.

I have many Paphs that I like and intend to keep that I know will never be awarded for one reason or another. I find awards useful when looking for divisions with quality flowers when I cannot see the plant in bloom. I know an awarded Paph will have a nice looking flower that meets certain quality standards.

Use AOS awards as you like or ignore them. Awards are not a necessary part of enjoying orchids. I do agree with you that sometimes size appears to have a more important roll in judging than it should. That may be a misconception on my part.

Paphreek, are you talking about buying divisions of awarded plants, or seedlings of awarded plants that have been selfed/cloned? I would think that a seedling bred from an awarded plant wouldn't necessarily have identical blooms to the mother plant.

I am not trying to attack the orchid judging enthusiast. I just don't fully understand the qualifications for awarded plants, and I am not going to plunk down money on the AOS book to explain it to me. That information should be provided on the web for free.

You can understand my confusion and frustration that the most awarded plants are the biggest and most colorful, even if the true nature of the plant is to have small blooms with a different color? I think sometimes I think too hard about it.

I think the reason it annoys me, is because there are plants out there I would like to buy, but are way overpriced for what they are because the breeder thinks "there will be awards from this cross." Seriously, what the ????

I just don't fully understand the qualifications for awarded plants, and I am not going to plunk down money on the AOS book to explain it to me. That information should be provided on the web for free.


It is provided for free -at your local judging center - go and observe. It costs nothing and you'll learn a lot about what is the standard and what is being looked for or not for various genera.

I think this is an interesting discussion.
Personally, I think it is great fun to take plants that perhaps others haven't seen too often, and show them at my local society or show. Also, it makes me feel like I am doing something right, as a new grower, to have my plants and my growing recognized.

Regarding breeding - yes, well, like anything competetive, there are standards and fashions and those have changed over time and I'm sure will continue to change over time. Right now, big fat besseaes are all the rage. It's been twenty years since the skinny red besseae was discovered and I think we'll see the same thing going on with kovachii. I think it is fun to see the variety. There are still plenty of older style besseaes around, and who knows, perhaps they'll come back into judging fashion one day.

Personally, I think certain plants look over-bred, or just certain species shouldn't be bred to certain others at all, but that's just my opinion, my fashion, and we're all entitled to our opinions (even the judges!) ;)

Heather,

I would go to a judging center, but I am stuck in Phoenix for the next six months. There isn't much judging going on here I think.

I have found information for only one grower here, and they specialize in Phals.

Would a drive to SoCal be to far out of the way for you? Maybe you can take a weekend trip. There are tons of nurseries in Encinitas, which is by San Diego--that whole area down there is filled with nurseries and there might be some judging going on.

For me, judging is a total learning experience. I believe that people have their plants judged for different reasons. There are people out there who may get a little too wrapped up in the whole competition aspect, and there are others who might be in it to continuously try to improve the standards and breed a bigger and better or more colorful plant, which keeps things interesting. To each his own but Me, I'm just trying to learn #1 what a bloom is *supposed* to look like and #2 how to provide optimum culture for my orchids. If I never see a standard quality bloom, how will I know if I am providing optimum culture? I still get very excited over *any* bloom even if it is a bit of an ugly duckling. If I happen to ever win an award, it will be my way of realizing that I have finally learned how to provide excellent culture for that plant.

Well said, Teresa - my thoughts are similar.

Also, I have to say, there are a lot of crummy looking plants out there! I mean, there are differences in what constitutes a good rothschildianum vs. a bad one. Personally, I'd prefer to own the better ones if at all possible, and I'm happy to pay more for a good one than a bad one. I don't have the space to grow flasks and many many seedlings up so I have to go by divisions and known crosses. That's just my taste though.

So, is there really no southwestern judging center? I saw a couple in Texas - what about Colorado?

I do not mean to step on anyones toes. By all means, if judging makes someone happy, or teaches them something then it can't be a bad thing. I am just not sure I will ever understand it.

If you had two orchids in front of you, and one had a slight curve to it, what makes one that lays flat "better" than the curved one? Because someone with an AOS nametag said so? Maybe I am thinking about it too philosophically. I can't see calling any bloom a bad bloom. They are all just different. And that is why I should never be a judge :)

How much will growing the plant in optimum conditions change a bad bloom into a good one? You can only work against so called "bad genes" to a certain point.

Where does it stop? Do you buy five of each cross hoping one will be above average? Or do you buy one seedling and hope for the best? If you spend $100 on a single plant, what do you do when it blooms and you are dissapointed in the color?

I am not being argumentative, I really do want to understand how much someone would have to commit to having the "best" if they went down that road. I have seen the ugly side of judging. I can't count on two hands the number of times I have seen arguments break out and backstabbing gossip mongers flame up over judged plants. Some orchid people are crazy. :)

Paphreek, are you talking about buying divisions of awarded plants, or seedlings of awarded plants that have been selfed/cloned? I would think that a seedling bred from an awarded plant wouldn't necessarily have identical blooms to the mother plant.


I'm mainly talking about divisions. Of course seedlings won't be identical to the parent, even if selfed.

When I do buy seedlings, I usually try to buy multiples or a flask if I think the cross has good potential. Part of that evaluation of potential can come from awards earned by the parent flowers. That said, not all awarded plants make good parents and there are some unawardable flowers that are excellent breeding plants because they impart certain characteristics to their progeny.:)

And that is why I must never buy a flask. I would be swimming in plants and my wife would demand that I sell some. I wouldn't be able to because I wouldn't be able to part with any of them. "That is the one with the curved petals, so I can't get rid of that one, and that is the one with the red spots on the throat, so I can't get rid of that one either..." I am hopeless.

She doesn't understand the fascination I have with plants, so if they make their way off of my growing shelf, I am in trouble.

No offense taken, Frank. Your questions are good and force us all to examine why we grow orchids and what's important about it to us. Growing and blooming orchids is an intensely personal experience.

The reason I pay higher prices for divisions some times is that I'm into breeding Paphs as a hobby(obsession).:) At my age, I probably can't afford to wait for the right plant to come along, so I go out and purchase Paph divisions that will help advance (I hope) my breeding goals. What I do, many would consider sheer lunacy. Sometimes I think it is lunacy, myself, but it's fun lunacy.:) Speaking of which, I have a remake of Paph Lunacy at the flasker, right now.:rolleyes:

As in any hobby, people like recognition for exceptional results. Size and color are not the only considerations, and judging sheets can be obtained as Heather said. I personally rarely take plants to a judging, and if I do, it is to show off something to friends more than to get an award. If something gets pulled in a show, I feel proud to know something I grew was noticed by others as being exceptional.

I think it is more important if you are a vendor, so when people see a cross they can look up the parents and see that a potential exists for a "bar raising" result. I don't know about you, but when I see Paph. rothschildianum ('Perfection' FCC/AOS x 'Mt. Milais' FCC/AOS) on a seedling, I would expect more than if it was ('Jon's Oldie' x 'Benchspace'). Why? Because I can look up and find pics of 'Perfection' and 'Mt. Milais' and read their measurements and know more about what I'm getting. Basically it gives more credibility just like a champion line in dog breeding. Even though 'Benchspace' will never get an award because when compared to other awards it doesn't "measure up"(it's big enough, just a little skinny), I still love it and think it would make a fine parent. But how would others know that? An official AOS description has more crediblity than a vendor's description in my book.

Obviously in seedlings it is indeed a crap shoot. But having awarded parents definitely increases your odds of getting a well formed, "idealistic" flower from the plant. A dear friend of mine has had over 40 plants awarded, and he only bought one of each usually unflowered. How did he beat the odds? First, he bought plants with a credible background and selected the best looking seedlings from that cross. I won't give away all his secrets to choosing a good plant out of bloom, but look at the leaves and compare growths amongst siblings.

It's all personal preference, but an extremely well formed, larger, more brilliantly colored flower 90% of the time is seen as "better" and is more sought after. That was part of my reason for posting the micranthums earlier...which would you rather have? Why?

On a side note, I think you are destined to move away from the growing shelf. You have the passion and the addiction...now to find the wife's weakspot. I would talk very seriously about building a greenhouse until she almost gives up, then give her the option of a growroom which by then will sound very reasonable.

Jon

There are other awards besides the quality awards focused on size, color, and floricity.

There are cultural awards too for exceptionally well grown examples (within normal quality expectations) of orchids.

Some people realy get realy excited about the competitive aspect of it all, and things can get as obnoxious as being around a bunch of football nuts on superball sunday.

And there is an aspect of putting on shows and showing that is totally social, and thats how some society members socialize with other societies.

So there can be lots of motives for showing and judging, but try to stay balanced with what compells you to be interested in orchids.

It all depends I think. Personally, I like the wild form of spicerianum, with its hooded, curled dorsal than the ironed-flat 'awardable' forms. They have much more character imo. But I am not a fan of the flop-eared vietnamenses you see nowadays, and would much rather buy a rounded one. That being said, I think judging is very important, because it is an official 'stamp of approval' for breeders and the like. If you were to buy say, a roth, and two different vendors were giving you two convincingly good descriptions of their cross, which one would you buy? You wouldn't be able to decide 'till you saw the parents in question in bloom. But an award tells you, this IS better because it HAS been compared to other forms and has measured up.

Maybe its just me, but these are the things I look for when buying seedlings....
-Vigor->Are the newer leaves jumping in size, or is the plant just sorta sitting there? I think this is especially important when looking at inbred plants.
-Colour->If the plant has anthocyanins in the leaves, a plant with darker leaves is likely to be more colourful than a plant with lighter leaves.
-Form->The wider, thicker and glossier the leaves, the better.

Why can you tell how a plant will flower from the leaves? I think it is because flower petals are basically just leaves after millions and millions of years of evolution. So their development is controlled by many of the same genes.

Oh and btw, these are just guidelines, plants don't follow these to the tee, and my personal hunch is that these are much, much more reliable when comparing plants within a cross than seedlings from different parental stock.

Some folks do not have time or the liking to send plants for judging and they are hording all the good stuff in their growing areas - a lot of people may not know that there are better plants available that are not awarded =)

Also note that in some organisations, they judge the person submitting the plant before they judge the plant =(.

Judging can be different in different countries -e.g. I can safely say that quite a few of the "awarded" Phal bellinas and violaceas in US are destined for the dumpster in this region.

Also over time, Judging has gotten harder. If you read the descriptions of some older awarded plants that received FCC's, they would not even qualify to receive an HCC using todays standards. I have seen Yellow Phals at the local big box store that 25 years ago would have been award quality.

That being said, the judging systems in place throuout the world have helped to raise the overall quality of plants available.

If you contact the Desert Valley Orchid Society in Phoenix, they have judging at their spring show. This was on April 1-2 this year. There are a number of members that grow paphs and phrags and some (like Eric Goo) that specialize in Phalaenopsis.
Dean

When I first started buying orchids 5 years ago, I got sucked into a society that was all about showing and getting plants awarded. They were obsessed with awards and glory. Needless to say, I didn't stick around long and never showed an orchid I bought. These people bought dozens of plants in spike, submitting a large amount of them for judging, and if the plants didn't win an award they either sold them off at a loss or neglected those plants until they died making room for even more new potential "award winners."

Now, I read comments here and there about judging, and it makes me sad. I now have no desire to ever have an orchid judged. The comparison of sizes sounds funny to me. What I mean is, if an orchid has good form and is nicely colored that doesn't mean it is a "good" flower. To say an orchid can't achieve high awards because it doesn't measure the same as the largest award winner is like saying that a miniature dog breed can't win a dog show because it is not the same size as a bull mastif :)

If judging of plants keeps pushing them toward bigger flowers with wider petals and deeper color, won't all orchid blooms eventually be completely round and maroon?

Someone straighten me out and explain this to me.


I'm just wondering.......if you didn't stick around the society long how do you know that the plant owners just neglected them until they died? That kind of killing off can take years.

It's interesting that you paint everyone who shows plants with the same brush. I show plants but I'm not obsessed about it, the point is to see improvements in plant hybrid shape and colour but darker doesn't necessarily mean better. We were going to give a Cattleya hybrid an AM the other night (not enough judges) and it was a pastel pink colour.

I also know of few (if any) who sell plants consistently at a loss and any that neglect them if they weren't any good at one show.

I have to say that I find your criticisms a bit short on substance and a bit ignorant to be honest. You should also remember that people join clubs to participate in some way and people do so through showing plants or whatever their interest is. Clubs are a social thing for a lot of people (including me) and the judging and showing is just part of that. I don't think showing is "sad" as you put it.........just because you don't like it doesn't mean you can put down those who do. I know others have been more diplomatic in their responses than me but I think I have responded appropriately.

Darren

Hi Bolero,

I "stuck around" the society for three months. In that time, I witnessed a member of the society kill of 45 plants from neglect. She went on a trip to Chicago to buy at least a hundred orchids, and when she came back, she asked me and another orchid society member if we would help her sort plants and clean up her sunroom. We agreed, and when we arrived, the first task she had me do was throw away 45 assorted orchids that she had left outside on the patio for three days in full sun. I don't have to tell you what happens to a phal in full sun. If that isn't killing by neglect, what is? I guess it didn't matter to her, she kept exactly 45 orchids out of the hundred she brought back.

Another society member bought a beautiful, multiple growth Sorcerers Apprentice. I know she paid $95 for it, because all she could do was spout about how much she paid for it at one of the monthly meetings. Right before I left the society she sold it to another member, but not before offering to sell it to me for $50. It had failed to win any awards when she had it judged, but whether this could be tied to her desire to sell it at a loss, I do not know.

I didn't paint anyone with any kind of brush. I never attacked any judges, or anyone who shows plants. Read back through my posts, and actually pay attention this time to the questions I asked and the statements I made.

You must be obsessed about judging, otherwise why would you feel the need to defend something that wasn't being attacked?

I asked to be educated about the qualities judges look for to award a plant, not realizing that there were too many different qualities spread out over all the species and hybrids to list them all on a message board. I have no interest in having any of my plants judged, so I doubt I will ever find out what those qualities are. This is just my feeling about judging, and should have no impact on somebody else's enjoyment of judging and the learning involved. I frankly don't care if my orchids flowers meet the ideal standards of the AOS.

You said you know of few, if any, people who sell plants at a loss or negelct them if they don't win awards. So you admit that there are people out there besides the people I know that do this?

You can call my criticisms of judging (which are only that I don't understand judging) short on substance. I would agree with you there, because I have never had a plant judged and never plan to, so I can't speak from experience. As for being ignorant, I am not the one being verbally abusive to another member of this message board for some perceived slight that didn't occur. I am glad you get enjoyment out of a social activity that revolves around orchids. If you continue to belittle someone for questioning aspects of your hobby, maybe you should evaluate how much you contribute to the social aspects of that hobby.

I never said judging was sad. I said it makes me sad to hear of some of the negative experiences people have with judging, which are numerous.

Ok folks, let's keep this nice and civil otherwise I would have to close this thread.

Sorry Peter, I will be very careful not to belittle anyone.

I do not have any ill feelings towards orchid societies at all. My one negative experience with orchid societies will not prevent me from searching for a society to join in the future. Right now, this is not a possibility for me (and no, I am not in prison so that is not the reason I can't join a society).

I hope in the future my wife and I can settle down in a part of the country with a strong group of orchid growers and hobbyists. I would love to participate more in the social aspects of this hobby without burdening myself with competition.

What I will say is this. I have had many hobbies in my lifetime ranging from book collecting to sports cards. I still collect books and art, and I have never found a hobby where there isn't some fringe element that loves to backstab, gossip and otherwise be a nuisance. Orchid growing and collecting is no different, but the fringe elements of the orchid world are more "in-your-face" than any other hobby I have ever participated in.

I think my response was quite civil and appropriate.

You cited 2 examples in total......I have to be honest, I am a member of 3 societies and have never seen anyone like that but that doesn't mean there isn't a few.

The way you posted your original message didn't actually indicate to me that you just wanted to understand it.

As for your other comments about me, I'll just ignore those.

I'll put it this way, then I am through with the topic. When I started this thread I was honestly hoping to find out some information about judging that would make me believe that it had some redeeming qualities. I have witnessed, and heard from firsthand sources enough negative material about the process and the people involved to fill a book. I wanted to understand what made people want to have plants judged. I now understand this...

People want to have plants judged to learn about growing better plants.

Growers want to have plants judged to make their plants sell better.

People want to show plants to be social and encounter other hobbyists.

These things are great, and I am glad that people can do these things. I have decided that pursuing awards is not something I am interested in. I don't feel any of the drama involved is worth it, for me. This is a personal choice and should not reflect on anyone else. I don't plan on ever telling anyone that they shouldn't have plants judged, nor do I expect anyone to ride me for my opinions of judging.

Perhaps there are completely fair judging centers out there, and judges who really want to advance the art of judging and the form of the orchids they judge. But I don't feel like swimming through the sea of bad experiences others talk about to find it. My first post was probably slanted by my negative outlook towards this subject, and for that I apologize to you anyone who took offense. I have learned what I wanted to learn and now consider the subject closed in my mind unless circumstance changes that.

Frank,

I'd like to tell a little story.
My first experience in Anthropology was a 10th grade Antho class in high school. We had a kid (a known joker) who was just making fun of everything, people w/ nose rings in other cultures (this was pre-piercing popularity) women who didn't wear tops ala National Geographic, you name it, he had something to say about it. The teacher, rather exasperated after a few classes of his snickering finally blurted out that "one thing in Anthro you must have is an open mind, if you don't have it - get out of here!" I majored in Anthro based on what I learned in her class.

Then, I went to college, and my adviser was a person who constantly drilled into my head that NO ONE was objective. Everything was subjective. Everything was based on individual perspective.

These two events (both in my Anthro schooling!) have stuck with me and always come up in my daily life. I try to take both to heart and use them as my "grains of salt" in these sorts of instances.
So... that said....

This is *just* a suggestion!
I would encourage you to at least try, at some point, to either clerk a ribbon judging for a local show, or go to a judging center if you can and observe an AOS judging. I really found both eye opening (and opposite) experiences! Just to observe and listen and then make judgements. They are different things with different criteria; different points of view and different perspectives.

I'm totally not trying to be a jerk, you and I've talked about this some off board, and everyone knows I'm a bit of a snob when it comes to good plants, but I came away from judging with a different perspective than I went in with. I come away from every society meeting I attend feeling happy about my plants and the plants I witnessed that day. I feel differently about hybrids as my tastes have changed (I used to be a real species snob!) I've learned never to say never. ;)

I do not mean to step on anyones toes. By all means, if judging makes someone happy, or teaches them something then it can't be a bad thing. I am just not sure I will ever understand it.

If you had two orchids in front of you, and one had a slight curve to it, what makes one that lays flat "better" than the curved one? Because someone with an AOS nametag said so? Maybe I am thinking about it too philosophically. I can't see calling any bloom a bad bloom. They are all just different. And that is why I should never be a judge :)

How much will growing the plant in optimum conditions change a bad bloom into a good one? You can only work against so called "bad genes" to a certain point.


I agree with these points to some extent and just so you know I am an Associate Judge in Australia. The idea with hybridising and linebreeding species is to get the ideal flower.....as to why flat is considered better, well maybe it's because it's really hard to get flowers that are and over time through various judging panels all over the planet this standard has developed. It's not just because "someone said so", it's a standard that has developed and been aimed for by breeders for many decades.

Not everyone wants to be or is cut out to be a judge. I certainly have my moments.

Also, as far as bad genes go? Well you're right, optimum conditions can only do so much but I must admit again that I've had plants growing in a shade house which would be considered to be very "average" looking in all respects but I put them in a glass house (using Slc Cherry Bee as an example) and my flowers went from average to stunning. I don't know if it was the protection the walls gave from the winds, the extra warmth, the extra humidity or what it was but it took an average flower to terrific. This won't always happen and in fact probably doesn't happen all that often when you look at overall numbers but certainly conditions can play a significant part in how well the flowers bloom.

As a relatively novice grower, I have tried to get my plants judged. I agree that it helps to attend some of these just to see the quality of the plants being shown so one may compare his/her growing skills to others to improve. However, it is a very subjective process despite the handbook tries to lead people to believe. I had a plant that was superior in size and color and similar in flower count to an awarded cultivar that was awarded elsewhere. Yet it was passed over without consideration. I even heard comments by one of the accredited judges such as 'I have one better in my collection'. As with any fashion, it depends on the trend of the time and what the judges like..etc. I suspect there is also nepotism in the system where a group of judges own a nursery and they will have their plants awarded so as to increase their values...So I agree with the comments that a $100 plant is not necessarily 'better' than others that was not awarded.

We had a kid (a known joker) who was just making fun of everything, people w/ nose rings in other cultures (this was pre-piercing popularity) women who didn't wear tops ala National Geographic, you name it, he had something to say about it. ;)

Hey that was me! :devil:

I am not interested in judging my plants either Frank. However many people in my society are really concerned with them. Ii don't have the income to turn over plants like that. I buy a plant, I bloom it(if I am lucky). I feel it comes down to teh need to be recognized. In our area, our judges are very political for and against certain people.

I think to keep a necessary mental balance when showing orchids is to remember why we show. I show my orchids at shows and meetings because I enjoy sharing these beautiful wonders with fellow growers and the public. One need only spend a few minutes watching the smiles and listening to the animated conversations of the people who take the time to come and see our displays to realize what's truly important.

The ribbons and AOS awards, while exciting to receive (WAY TO GO GILDA! :clap: ), are not necessary to having a successful display. They are the icing on the cake.

Orchid Digest has an editorial article by Koopowitz on this topic this issue.

I don't think I came across anything different from what's been said in this thread already, but its certainly a question that goes around the orchid world.

Orchid Digest has an editorial article by Koopowitz on this topic this issue.

What issue is that article in, Rick?

What issue is that article in, Rick?

It just came in the mail a couple of days ago. So the most recent edition.

(I'm still at work and can't give you a volume #)

It just came in the mail a couple of days ago. So the most recent edition.

(I'm still at work and can't give you a volume #)

I'll probably get mine in a week or so.

I'd like to put my two cents in here. I've been growing orchids for a long time, but just recently became sincerely interested in hybridizing. And I also started my personal orchid business, which I hope one day manages to suck away only a small part of my retirement fund.

As a hobbyist, I care only about the culture awards, as these are the only ones I feel that demonstrate my ability, and then only to myself. Even then, I get a bigger kick out of blooming something that has never bloomed for me before than growing a huge specimen of a weed.

As a business owner, I realize awards give an orchid greenhouse a recognizable name in a highly competitive and ever less profitable market. They demonstrate a grower's knowledge, ability, and reputation. Without them, you sell plants. With them, you sell a commodity, and you also bank your future.

As a hybridizer, I sit on the fence about awards. Certainly there are targets that we all find more aesthetically appealing in a flower - broader flower segments, deeper color, etc. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and some unawardable flowers (by AOS standards, at least) are obviously very desirable and will consistently be in demand. In addition, there are other traits that one must consider - floriferousness, vigor, etc. Frank Smith passed on the best advice he had ever gotten to me, however, when he said the one secret to hybridizing well was simply breeding "the best to the best." So a hybridizer cannot ignore awards if he wants awardable plants.

One pair of orchid people I know and respect greatly consist of a hybridizer gower (Rolf), and a judge (Linda). He gets a bigger kick out of selling one of his unawarded hybrids to someone who has fallen in love with it than he does when one of his plants is awarded. She would rather sell out the table of plants at a show, but I know the awards that they receive (and they get ALOT of them) mean a huge deal to her.

My point is that awards are subjective simply due to the fact that regardless of the system used to dole them out, the awards themselves are still based greatly on aesthetics. And aesthetic qualities simply cannot be quantified or measured successfully.