Howdy I have a question and figured I would ask the Paph Gods... I have a compot that has been out of flask since Aug. 04. They are a maudiae type form Antec (beginner special) and some of the plants have grown quite large. Should I just leave'em alone and let the big ones flourish? Or should I repot the bigger ones out allowing the smaller paphs to develop into a larger plant? Thanks in advance?
Tadd :evil:

I think it makes sense to start moving the bigger plants into inividual pots.

How big (in inches or cm) are the bigger plants?

They have a total leafspan of about 4 inches or so the bigger ones do at least. Maybe I should pot them out into 2 inch squares individually? hhmmm....

They have a total leafspan of about 4 inches or so the bigger ones do at least. Maybe I should pot them out into 2 inch squares individually? hhmmm....

Yep, I would!

I'll pot out the larger plants with a leafspan of 2-3" into individual pots. I'll take the smaller plants and put up to five in one pot. Sometimes if there are quite a few tiny plants, I'll compot them all together again.

I find the paph compots don't seem to mind being disturbed then recompotted.

I now have a couple of Acker compots that are growing madly just one month out of flask! He says he sometimes keeps them up to 10 months in compot but I don't think there is any way the larger plants I have will go another two or three tops! We'll see how angry phrag compots get when broken up then recompotted. I see LOTS of smaller seedlings around the edge of my compots.

I am a big fan of "re-compotting".

It is late now and the lights are off in the plant room, but tomorrow I will take some photos and post them to give you some shots of compots at various stages of first and second compot.

For me, recompotting is necessary because I have adopted Antec's idea of potting out Paph flasks with the agar still attached. It works great to get the plants jump-started, but even if you gently separate the clumps just a bit- you still end up with very crowded plants.

So after just 8-12 weeks in first compot, I find myself with plants woefully overcrowded and growing fast, yet too small for single pots. That is where recompotting comes in!

I tend to put one flask of 25-30 plants into 2 4" round compots. Recompotting will have that same number in 3-4 compots when all is done. Even watering almost daily, I find if I do not do this then too many of the plants will dry out. There is just too much local competition for the water.

Anyway, will do photos tomorrow. That will tell the tale better.

Take care,

Tom.

Interesting discussion, I look forward to seeing your photos, Tom.

I actually decided to pot out the bigger plants. I now have 8 decent size seedling in 2 inch sqs. I then took about 12 or so little guys that were struggling and put them back into a compot with fresh bark, chopped sphag, spongerock, and some aliflor. The little ones seemed kind of rough compared to the bigger ones(not much in the roots department). Thanks for the input! You guys(and gals) rule!
Peace,
Tadd :evil:

Ok, here goes as promised.

First up, here is a trio of compots from the same flask. This is a rare instance where I did go ahead and remove the agar and separate the plants. Their sheer size dictated that! These came out of flask about 3 weeks ago and the one flask filled these 3 compots,

http://members.aol.com/elpaninaro/paph1.jpg

Now, here is another flask also potted up 3 weeks ago with the agar intact. This is the more normal situation for me- one flask split into 2 compots. Notice how very crowded the plants are,

http://members.aol.com/elpaninaro/paph2.jpg

I am not so worried about the crowding here because I know I will be splitting out the compots in another 6-8 weeks from now into 3 or 4 new compots. By keeping the agar intact, I have an easier time keeping the plants properly moistened, plus I avoid the long potting time and risk to the plants of splitting them out right from flask.

I have found Paphs go through a "danger" period right from flask. This is moreso with the Corypetalums than with others. The plants will come out very fragile. Shipping probably contributes to this. So I want to handle them as little as possible. Better to wait 8-10 weeks when the leaves have firmed up. This usually starts to happen within 4-5 days of potting.

Next up, here is a trio of compots from the same flask about 6 months out of flask. These started off in 2 compots and I actually lost quite a few because I waited too long to thin them out (they have been in their current pots for about 4 months now.) The flask had a huge number of plants, just very small. Even now they are a bit crowded and might need thinning again in a couple of weeks since I am not ready to go solo pots on most of them. In any event this is after one "recompotting" and showing signs another recompotting is in order,

http://members.aol.com/elpaninaro/paph3.jpg

Below is a shot of part of a flat of a Parvi cross I just potted out. They were in compot for about 6 months and 2 weeks ago got their own pots. I show you these to demonstrate a point. Notice how small these are. It seems crazy they are in their own pots, right? Well, the roots on these are amazing. That tiny plant in front has 4 large fuzzy post-flask roots! There were so many roots in the compots that even daily watering did not keep them from drying out. So my advice is let the roots tell you when to put something in its own pot, not leaf span. Here is that photo,

http://members.aol.com/elpaninaro/paph4.jpg

Next up, here is a shot of a Maudiae type cross I just potted out. Just shows the average size they are when I take them from compot. For larger plants leaf-span-wise that are not fully rooted, I like the 3 per 3" pot scheme you see here. These mini-compots are a great compromise for those plants too big for compot but with inadequate roots for their own pots,

http://members.aol.com/elpaninaro/paph5.jpg

Next, here is what happens when I pot out compots and have leftover plants that are way too small. I just put 5-8 in another 4 inch compot giving them lots of room. These bellatulums have been in these pots for about a month and already they are thriving. Not stragglers at all- they were just too crowded in the first compots. 5-6 per pot gives them plenty of growing room and, if you sell some of your seedlings like I do, makes for a good sized "mini-compot",

http://members.aol.com/elpaninaro/paph6.jpg

Finally, here is just a shot of a flat from a Corypetalum cross- again to show the size range when I pot them out. Those tiny plants on the edge have good roots just like the big ones in the middle- so all got their own pots!

http://members.aol.com/elpaninaro/paph7.jpg

Hope this is helpful!

The overriding function again I think is roots, roots, roots.

Compots with lots of roots will dry out faster and need recompotting sooner. Tiny plants with lots of roots are ready for their own pots. Larger plants with few roots can still benefit from some form of compot- be it a full one or just 2-3 plants in a 3 inch pot.

Elpan, GREAT POST!!!

What size are the round pots you are using for these seedlings. They look like perhaps 3" in diameter.

Are you a commercial grower?

Hi Slipperhead,

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes, these are 3 inch round pots. They are a real pain to find sometimes and more expensive than squares, but I like the fact that 20 of them fit perfectly in the flat trays yet force a good amount of space between plants.

I am not a commercial grower, but headed that way in the distant future. Right now I buy 15-20 flasks a year and then grow them to fully established in 3 inch pot size and then sell them.

Being an indoor grower, I have little room to grow these to size, but perfect conditions for getting seedlings started.

So this is just a good way to gain experience, keep my hand in the hobby, and build a good base for the future.

It has been a very educational experience. I started growing orchids when I was 9- just over 20 years ago. Growing out Paph flasks the past couple of years and documenting the process carefully I have learned far more in that short time than in nearly two decades of prior experience!

Even if a person only buys a flask here and there- it is well worth the effort. And it is not expensive either. I support nearly 1,000 plants in my dining room with shelving that cost less than $500 to put together and is reasonably aesthetic (Metro Shelving units from Container Store plus Home Depot fixtures and Phillips Sun bulbs.)

Great info, thanks! How about some pics of your whole setup?

So, I've learned I need to break up some of my compots that have cramped, tiny seedlings.

Hi Terp,

Sure thing. I have worked the past 3 years to make all this as neat and time efficient as possible at low cost, so here is a peek,

Here is an overall shot of one of the shelving units that houses seedlings,

http://members.aol.com/elpaninaro/su1.jpg

Here is a shot of the lights on the top shelf. The Metro Shelving units lend themselves to 2 shelves with about 18-20 inches of light clearance on two of the shelves, and a shelf with about 25 inches of clearance on the third shelf. These can all be adjusted, but with my lighting I find 18-20 inches is best. So the top shelf has adjustable lights. Then I can keep the lights up high when there are new compots from flask, or perhaps budding plants, and then lower them 4-5 inches when there are seedlings that need full light,

http://members.aol.com/elpaninaro/su2.jpg

Here is how the tray system works. 20 3" round pots or 14 4" round pots can fit in each tray. Or each tray can hold 3 small utility trays from Container Store- each of those holding 5 3" pots or 3 4" pots.

At one end, both tray corners have been cut out (these are standard 11x22 or 10x20 thin plastic trays with no holes) to allow for draining after watering. This is all set inside another identical tray with no holes to prevent water spilling on the carpet or the lighting below the higher shelves,

http://members.aol.com/elpaninaro/su3.jpg

For watering speed, I recently got a plastic adapter for the kitchen sink and one of those new self coiling compact 25 foot hoses from Lowe's Department store. I just use the adapter from my Python system for emptying or filling fish tanks, but the adapter alone can be found for about $1.

I then lift out the entire trays from each exterior tray, set them over the sink with the drain holes over the sink (and put in that strain drainer to keep bark and charcoal from clogging the sink) and just water each plant by hand. Then you just gently tip the tray at an angle for a few seconds and most all of the excess water drains off,

http://members.aol.com/elpaninaro/su4.jpg

Once that is done, I set the trays back in the outer trays and place them on a desk in front of a fan- 3-5 minutes for seedlings and 10 minutes for compots- to ensure standing water is quickly removed from any leaves or plant centers. Usually a little blowing of the plants is needed to get some stray water out of the axils of the plants.

Then as long as they get another hour under lights before night (I usually water in the evenings), I have found the plants dry out fine and I have not had any troubles with crown rot.

I keep indirect fan motion on the plants under the lights- hence the precautions about standing water each time I water them.

With my potting mix, this dictates the seedlings be watered 3-4 times per week and that compots be watered 4-5 times per week.

All in all, 4 hours a week effort to keep 1,000 plants going strong, with no messiness anywhere in the apartment.

The only other thing worth noting in considering the ease of this system is I am a notorious non-fertilizer. My mix is rich, I replant these every few months at most, and I am not trying to flower them. So my system does not take fertilization into account.

If I ever get to where I am growing these to flowering size, that will become important, but for now it is not a factor. Even then, I expect the frequent repottings and introduction of crushed oyster shell to Corypetalums would not lead me to a regular added fertilizer regimen.