From my observations of over 100 blooming besseaes and 30 or 40 blooming dalessandrois, I have made the following observations about the two species. Hopefully it will help others to identify their plants. However, I have never seen a hybrid of the two species.

Here are some pictures of a true dalessandroi. Notice the color, and size of the pouch. And the yellow towards the center of the flower. I’ve also observed that the ovary is shorter in dalessandroi verses besseae. I have seen dalessandrois with horizontal petals and besseaes with drooping petals. I don’t think that is a reliable distinguishing feature.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/Phragdalessandroi22.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/Phragdalessandroi24.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/Phragdalessandroi30.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/Phragdalessandroi32.jpg


These pictures are of a besseae and a dalessandroi (on the left). Notice the ovary onf the dal. Also look at the bracts of the dalessandroi flower spike. The floral bracts are very closely spaced. Another observation; almost all besseaes have there first flower coming from the second flower bract, 95% I’d say. While with dalessandroi, most plants don’t have their first flower until the third floral bract. If a branch is to occur it comes from the second bract. They usually flower on the third bract regardless if the spike branches or not. The last picture shows this well. The second bract has been exposed to show the beginnings of a branch.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/PICT0045.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/PICT0050.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/Phragdalessandroi5.jpg

The next difference is the leaves. Below on the left are the leaves of the biggest besseae I could find, beside the leaves average, large dalessandroi. Dalesandroi can have very wide leaves when mature. But some plants have leaves similar to besseae. So this isn’t the best way to distinguish the two species.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/DalessandroiLeaves4.jpg

The best way to tell them apart is the staminoide. Below are pictures of two besseae staminoides and one dalesandroi (in the middle). Notice how the dal staminode is missing the ‘tooth’ or ‘horn’. 90% of besseaes have it, while 0% of dals have a horn. The last picture has the staminodes cut in half. Besseaes staminode is usually convex, while dalessandrois id more flat. The horn is usually of white, but sometimes can be red. The bottom of the staminoid is usually blunt.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/Staminodes9.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/Staminodes7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/Staminodes11.jpg

Here are the staminodes with the respective flowers, dalessandroi in the middle.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/FlowersandTheirStaminodes3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/PouchsandStaminodes1.jpg

The best way to tell the two plants apart is a combination of the staminoide and the other characteristics noted above. One last thing, the distance between growths. Below is a picture of a dalessandroi with a very nice, close growth pattern.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v322/KyleLucyk/dalesandroi/Phragdalssandroi29.jpg

Hope this helps
Kyle

thanks Kyle, very informative!

Excellent photos, especially the "slipper" ones. :D

Hi Kyle,

Great analysis and right on the money. Sorry I couldn't make the trip last November, it would have been fun exploring together.

Best Regards,

Tom

Thanks for the information

An excellent post!
Which I think means I must have a hybrid. :confused:

Wow what detail! Very informative! Thanks!

An excellent post!
Which I think means I must have a hybrid. :confused:

Me, too. I suspect that since it was only recently that dalessandroi has be categorized as a separate species, a lot of the besseaes out there are hybrids between the two species.

Thanks Kyle. One thing though, these characters may not hold up well once these species are converted to 4n. I have noted more variation in just about all of these in 4n P. besseae but have not seen documented "pure" P. dalessandroi converted to 4n.
Dean Stock

Very informative, thanks Kyle

Kyle,

Another thing I've noticed - at least in our clones of d'aless - is that the dorsal sepal always seems to be longer than in a typical Ecuadoran besseae. Have you also noticed this in your plants? I really think you should consider organizing this material and submitting it to The Orchid Digest for publication. The combination of photos and text is really good, and the topic is certainly current.

Best Regards,

Tom

Great idea. I support that!

I support it too -
I have to say, for all of this, my not -so - dalessandroi - labelled as dalessandroi (It is DIFFERENT from besseae for sure but I am still doubtful based on all I have read here) has now won two ribbons labelled as dalessandroi. Today, I watched quietly as Jean Stephanic compared my besseae (from Orchids Ltd - straight besseae) to my dalessandroi from Dennis, and proceeded to point out all the "clear differences" between the two and said "this is a great example of the differences side by side" (I was glad they'd placed them so closely together.)

I guess my point is - people, including AOS judges are simply NOT aware of the subtleties, and I also overheard my own judging team remark on the fact (yet again) that they did not know that dalessandroi had recently been broken out from besseae as a separate species.

CLEARLY we need a definative explanation of all this!
(I will confess, even though I have my doubts, I continue to label this plant as dalessandroi (that iswhat the tag indicates and so far, no one has disagreed) as my own private sociology experiement. I find it fascinating listening to people talk about it.)

I support it too -


I guess my point is - people, including AOS judges are simply NOT aware of the subtleties, and I also overheard my own judging team remark on the fact (yet again) that they did not know that dalessandroi had recently been broken out from besseae as a separate species.

CLEARLY we need a definative explanation of all this!


Regarding AOS judges being aware of the distinctions between bessae and delessandroi, please understand that judges are not expert in every genera. Some have expertise in cattleyas, or pleurothallids or vandas and could care less about paphs or phrags than their normal focus. Even those that have a good understanding of the taxonomy of slipper orchids might not be up to date on new changes. Most judges have a good general knowledge of many genera and excellent knowledge of a couple. Some plants they have never seen and will not have a point of comparison.

I know the expectation of the layman is for AOS judges to have a great knowledge of many orchids and that is realistic,but to know EVERY orchid and the relatively recent taxonomic changes is impossible. It is true for the most part that judges have been exposed to a larger range of plants than the general public and are speaking from that reference point.

Jean Stephanic compared my besseae (from Orchids Ltd - straight besseae) to my dalessandroi from Dennis, and proceeded to point out all the "clear differences" between the two and said "this is a great example of the differences side by side" (I was glad they'd placed them so closely together.)


Thats funny. Me and Jean would talk about the diffences between the two species at great lengths when she was at ecuagnera in the fall. She should be qualified to distinguish the two species, although she might not of been around for my horn on the staminode breakthrough. Shes not a interested in slipper orchids as I am, but she did see as see lots of both species in bloom while she was here.

AS for the Orchid Digest, its in the works. I wanted to run it by you guys to see if anyone could spot some any errors in my observations. For instance, stock, you raise an interesting point. Which characteristics change in 4N besseaes? What about 3N? I´m waiting for Olaf to add his two cents.

Kyle

Dear Kyle,
congratulations. It is not necessary to add anything. I would ask you also if it would possible to publish your analyze in our journal. But it would be also great when it will be possible in The orchid Digest.

Only one point would be interesting to add. Very often plants labeled as Phrag. dalessandroi were shown and were in truth the Phrag. Jersey, the cross between besseae and dalessandroi. I must look if I can find some more pictures of this cross.

For this time best greetings

Olaf

I would answer earlier but I visited the EOC in Padua in Italy and came on sunday late at home.

Thats funny. Me and Jean would talk about the diffences between the two species at great lengths when she was at ecuagnera in the fall. She should be qualified to distinguish the two species, although she might not of been around for my horn on the staminode breakthrough. Shes not a interested in slipper orchids as I am, but she did see as see lots of both species in bloom while she was here.

I agree! Which is why I am still unsure of what I have, exactly!
The jury's still out on the horn or lack-thereof. I'm waiting for the current bloom to drop and I'll disect it.

It certainly isn't like any of my other 15 besseaes, at least that much is for sure!

Hi

I have both var. besseae and var. flavum.

.... but I am on the lookout for a true dalessandroi.

anyone who can help me out ?

kind regards
Lars

Maybe try Dennis D'Alessandro? (gypsy glen orchids)

Wonderful post and pictures! Very useful!

Very interesting topic discussion!

How did I miss this post! I love besseae plants and this is so enlightening to a newbie like me.

Thanks I will try that :thumbsup:

That was very interesting and informative. Thank you.

Carl

Hi

Before the International Orchid Show in Bad Salzuflen, Germany, on Marts 4-7th, I preordered 3 Phrag. dalessandroi from http://www.mundiflora.com

I hope they are the "real deal", because I paid $100 pr. plant.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/733/4003.jpg

At first look they looks right. New growth come right beside the old ones.
I will post more images after first flowering.

What do you think Kyle.... do they look right ?

They - at mundiflora - should know, as the plants grow practically in their backyard.

New growth has not started yet, but they look ok, so I am not worried.

Kind regards
Lars

Nice plants! Hope they are the real deal!

very very nice pretty:heart::Party::heart:

Those are some nice looking plants! Are they about to spike?

Hi

>Are they about to spike?

One of them has flowered before, so there may be hope..... but htis first season I will be happy if they just setle in well :fcrossed:

:D
Lars

nice plants!!! good luck:fcrossed: show us pix when they bloom.

Yes, the leaves look correct (wide).

Kyle

Hi Kyle..... up in Canada

I hope to give you picturess that show flowers of "real dalessandroi" :hyper:

please contact me on " falkoner@youmail.dk "

.......... of cource I will keep all of you informed too :p


all the best from Denmark
Lars

As promised an update when in flower.

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/8929/dalessandroi.jpg

More when all is open.

:)
Lars

oh wow thats a beauty!!! how big is the plant? how tall is that spike?

very very pretty:heart::heart::heart:ty

Looking great!

>How tall is the spike

Here is an older photo showing the size:


http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/9633/2025if.jpg

:)
Lars

I'm so jealous I want one!

a couple of updated photos

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3306/img0017ui.jpg

http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/3394/img0011hk.jpg

this evening it has 7 flowers open at the same time.


:)
Lars

These are extremely beautiful! I want one now!

Fantastic job!

Just incredible!

wow thats a beauty!!!

Great looking species!