Hello eveyone;

First time poster to this forum and very happy about all the information I've read here. I've just obtained all the equipment for my small garge-located orchid flasking lab. Even managed to get an older laminar flow hood. I currently have reginae and acaule seed at various beaching times flasked in Malmgren and Bill Steeles media. I've also ordered a mature kentuckiense, reginae and seedling of kentuckiense x fasciculatum(sp?). I also have an established pubsecens in the garden. I guess the information I would like would pertain to plant material. Which species or hybrids should I have in my garden for future seed production. Are any species difficult from mature seed which is all I can obtain a this time (eg montanum)? Should I focus on hybrids instead of species? What plants should I have available for future breeding programs? Any other factors I should include in my experimental protocol besides bleaching time and media?

What would you do if you have access to all orchid flasking equipment and have gained enough general knowledge on technique to allow you to propagate cyps?

Lori

I don't do flasking but I just wanted to say hi and welcome to the forum!

Hi Lori! Welcome to the board. I grow Cyps but haven't gotten to flasking them yet. There is at least one Cyp flasker here who is quite prolific so hopefully he'll chime in.

As to whether you want to do hybrids or species, you may find you'd like to try both. And even if you do get mostly into doing hybrids, I would hope you still propagate some species to distribute for genetic conservation. I have one plant that regularly produces many capsules so we should touch base next season about getting some to you. (EDIT: I see now that you're in Canada so I won't be able to send you seed, but I'm sure there are other sources for you. Sorry!)

Good luck with your new endeavor!

Welcome and interesting topic.
I saw that You meantioned Malmgren and I do not know If You have seen his webpage.
He talks a bit also about which plants that give good off spring and which he have had difficulties with. He sometimes also talks about what kind of seeds he is using mature or green.

http://www.lidaforsgarden.com/Orchids/index.htm

Here there is some information about propagating other orchids as well. The page is both in English and Swedish.

Making the true species have the advantage that the new plant also produce seeds and pollen for further work while that is not always true for hybrids. Some species have large variation so there might be a way of finding a nice and propagate that one (selfing) or making new ones. Sticking to "easy" plants might also be good since it takes a few years untill they are adults.

Hope You get more information and that you also will tell us about Your sucess and maybe also about things that did not go so well as expected.

Kind Regards
Joakim

Thanks for the welcome and for replying to the posts. Seeds of reginae were flasked 1.5 weeks ago after bleaching at 15, 30, 45, 60 and 120min. There was no kinetin added to the media which would reduce the amount of time needed for bleaching dramatically according to Svante. Potato was added I'm told to expect germination in 3-4 weeks. The acaule were flasked a week ago. Variable times for bleaching have been given ranging from 2 - 6 hours so I flasked seeds every hour starting from 1 and ending at 6 hours. Will try to take photos but experiments are being performed in test tubes so may only be able to give quantitative results.

Any one know which hybrids have so far given no or only unfertile seed? Would be nice not to try repeating work done by someone already

Lori

Hey Lori!

Are you aware of Michael Weinert's Cypripedium forum? All of the big experts at least watch that site, and will even answer questions if they are specific. It is a quiet place mostly these days, but still worth a look:

http://www.cypripedium.de/forum/

No doubt you have seen Ron's messages here on this forum. He is the man to talk to about this on this forum. As far as I know, he has read just about everything written about the micropropagation of terrestrial orchids.

Your other questions, as best as I can!

1. What species/hybrids should you have for hybridizing? Well, I can tell you that the lion's share of hybrids already done are primary crosses. The world of hybridizing the hybrids is just underway. Since this is a completely new area, little can be said specifically about it (I do know that the hybrid Gisela has proven to be a poor parent plant with most/all embryos not surviving). There has been a wide range of crosses done, some of them being rather weird combinations (e.g., candidum x yatabeanum, reginae x acaule). All I can tell you is to look at the ones already made, and chose combinations that you think will be nice. Personally, I feel that a light colored flower (like kentuckiense) crossed with a dark, veined flower (like tibeticum) often produces strange looking, veined monstrousities. I would keep the color schemes more pure, say dark flowers with dark, as so on.

BTW, I'd say your kentuckiense x fasciculatum is very likely actually kentuckiense x fasciolatum. I could be wrong.

2. Mature seed not germinating- A number of species have been difficult to grow from mature seed, but may be easy from green pods. Again, check the literature on this. For a long time japonicum was considered impossible from mature seed, but then the bleaching time was drastically reduced, and presto, it grew.

3. What plants should you grow? As many as you can get your hands on if you are serious. Cyps are still quite unusual plants and the rare ones command a high price. Of course when breeding you should use the nicest plants you can find. There are many "dogs" out there, and dogs will produce more dogs if bred!

4. Is there anything else I can vary besides bleaching time and media? Sure, temperature and light are the big ones. Some people are also experimenting with fungal symbionts to spur germination.

If I was successful in growing Cyps I would buy a nice piece of property in some cool mountains and start a Cyp garden that would knock your socks off each spring! If you're considering a commercial operation, well, there's a lot more to consider.

Tom

Lori
Here is a link for places to find hybrid list and also info about the species is for exaple Werner Frosch nice webpage.

http://www.w-frosch.onlinehome.de/menu_eh.htm

Good luck.
Joakim

This weekend I plan to try flasking my x ventricosum seeds to join the acaule and reginae which have not yet germinated (only been 2 weeks so I'm not too worried yet). I'm not sure if they're from a native population or a human-aided remake of the cross. Each parent has it's own set of requirements for germination but was wondering about the conditions neccesary for this hybrid. I've noticed that Malmgren has not tried to germinate them but Frosch has some nice pics which show great variability so he must have had success. I've also checked the Frosch cypripedium forum for information but nothing was available. Will post to that forum as well when I get a chance.

Lori

Lori
Just a quick response to Malmgren and Ventricusum.
He is not always referring to it as a hybrid and he has made the cross calXmac but not even tried with vent.
http://www.lidaforsgarden.com/Orchids/cypripedium_eng_art.htm
He seems to make the calXmac himself. Mabe to be able to play with colour himself.

I am not sure if the plants Frosch make is seeds from vent or if he has made the cross calXmac him self.
I do not know if he has stated that. He is consistent in calling vent a hybrid.
Frosch is selling vent for the moment so he has sucess with them.

Natural vent. is fertile. I do not know if man made are that.

Good luck
Joakim

Welcome, Lori!

You will find flasking Cyp's to be very rewarding. I see that you are into experimenting - there is much to be done in flasking Cyps as relatively few people are doing it still and many use protocols that work for them, but may not be optimized. As Tom mentioned, some species have not responded to germination when seed is mature and when using conventional wisdom in bleaching, whereas other protocols have recently brought success.

As for a hybridization plan, there is much to be done. Perhaps conceiving a goal and working with crosses toward it is the best plan - but to date so little has been done (or at least published!) that random attempts may lead to interesting offspring. While few complex hybrids have been reported yet, and several attempts have not yielded adult plants, certainly this situation will not last. Other genera were thought to be as difficult at one time but now there are many successes.

With your reginae, you should get a lot of protocorms in a month with your 30 minute bleach time. Kinetin would have helped this species but even without it you will do well. The acaule will likely sit quietly in their flasks for some time - often a couple of months or even longer - before you see evidence of growth. But the rule of thumb with Cyps is to never throw out a flask - it is not at all uncommon for seed to sit quietly for 6 months or longer, then suddenly you will have a flask with hundreds of protocorms. Presumably some metabolite is building up slowly then reaches a critical level. As for acaule, they grow in very acidic conditions. While everyone flasks in the usual pH 5.6 medium, I have used a pH probe to check pH at the time protocorms appear - it is about 4.0 - 4.5, consistent with the conditions the adults like. So the quiet time is spent with some metabolic activity that results in lowering of pH. Of course, I do not actually know that it is the low pH that is stimulating them!

As for production of species, there is enormous variation among individuals of most species (exceptions seem to be reginae and kentuckiense - all of them are spectacular). In particular pubescens and macranthos are highly variable among the more popular species. Breeding to reach predefined standards would be of interest.

Again, welcome to the forum. We look forward to following your work.

Ron Burch
Wilton CT

My reginae protocorms are coming along nicely with 1.5 hours being the optimal bleaching time. I've never had them in bleach that long before which explains my poor germination. Don't see anything from the other species I have on media as yet. Do I transfer the protocorms to fresh media at any point or just grow on to November, take them out of the media and put them in the fridge for 3 months?

I'm now trying to determine what crosses to have my friends with cyps in their gardens to do for me. Here's the plants I have available. Candidum, kentuckiense, pubescens, Sabine, reginae and I believe calceolus. What crosses would you do? What not going to work so don't bother trying. Will also try to get seed of the pure species. Also half-mature or fully mature seed for better germination.

Thanks in advance guys.

Lori

Hi,

If you used kinetin in the medium, which is common for this species, then you should transfer the protocorms as soon as you can (about two months after sowing). If left in kinetin for too long the shoot buds will become quite deformed. If there was no kinetin, then you can leave for a while longer. You will find that fast-growing seedlings like reginae need to be reflasked at least once and sometimes twice as they produce a lot of waste. If you reflask after about three months or so you will see a nice growth spurt.

If you have charcoal in the medium (Malmgren medium) then the seedlings do well for a longer time than if you use Harvais medium without charcoal.

Good luck!

Ron Burch

Re crosses: many Cyp hybrids do not cross well. However, last year we made some Sabine crosses that are doing well so far. You will find that most hybrids made with reginae look like reginae. We have found that pubescens, kentuckiense and candidum all make nice parents. Collecting pods at 6 weeks after pollen application works very well in general, especially with hybridization attempts as many will make nonviable mature seed but nicely viable embryos.

Frosch has a very detailed list of existing hybrids, with photos of many, on his website: http://www.w-frosch.onlinehome.de .

Ron Burch

Hi Lori. My flasks of Cyp reginae germinate very well at times from 30-60
minutes. The 'amount' of germination is, for me, more a function of the
media used and the 'extra' ingredients. I also see some variation between
germination from year to year(ie: 2004,2005 etc.) I flask using dry seed
collected from my blooming size plants. Time permitting, I'll try green pods
this year. Keep good records and have fun. Soon your problem will be what
to do with all your seedlings!


Greg.

Hello everyone;

I just flasked some macrantos seed to see if I can get germination. I used a method suggested by Ron and applied a vacuum to the seed. The seed turned a white colour but did not sink as was described in the protocol. Think the seeds got a proper bleaching?

Lori

Usually the seed will sink, sometimes repeated vacuum is required - even if they do not sink you will get reasonable germination. I have had this happen in the past with parviflorum; no sinking but still germination.

Good luck!

Ron Burch