Hi all,

Great forum -- I've learned a lot since I joined recently.

Anyone here familiar with paph genetics? I was trained as a geneticist, although I'm relatively new to the orchid scene. I'd be interested in finding out what people's experiences have been in observing what traits were dominant or recessive in various crosses.

:welcome: Thanks for joining! We have a nice and a friendly community here.

Right up my alley. Drop me an email.

Right up my alley. Drop me an email.

Though, of course, it might benefit the rest of us also, who are hoping to learn more about this. :)

Yep, we can all benefit from it also, so please do share it here on the forum! :)

I agree, please have a public discussion so the rest of us can learn!

Okay, give me a good reason to share my secrets, other than 'i wanna know' and I will.

Why should you share your 'secrets'? Becasue I want to learn too!

I do a bit of my own hybridizing (phals not paphs) and would have a bit of a genetics background. I could probably figure out your secrets if I studied pictures of primary hybrids long enough (please don't challenge me to) becasue I don't think there is any earth moving secret to paph genetics.

I think, and I doubt I'm alone, that this board is for sharing ideas and knowledge. If you know something that you don't want others to know, then PM or Email them, don't dangle it in from of the whole board.

I think a basic or advanced discussion of genetics will help everyone appreciate the beauty and work that goes into hybrids, As well as the high cost of premium hybrids.

So please Steve, I beg of you, share your wisdom!

Kyle

I'm quite interested to know if anyone has done a primary cross or a sib cross, and actually grown up a bunch of the progeny (say, at least 30). The reason for looking at that many progeny is because of the randomness in genetic inheritance of traits. Simply selecting for the fastest growing or most apparently vigorous plants may lead to some interesting traits being overlooked.

Just in case folks are fuzzy on the terms dominant and recessive, I'll take a moment to clarify... "Dominant" and "recessive" are relative terms -- one term is meaningful only in the context of the other term. For example, you can have trait X be dominant to trait Y (in other words, trait Y is recessive to trait X).

A trait that is dominant DOES NOT mean that it is better. This is a very common misconception, unfortunately... it might be easier to think of a dominant trait as "obscuring" or blocking the expression of a recessive trait.

A trait can be both dominant AND recessive: A > B > C, for example. B is dominant to C, but recessive to A.

There are many recessive traits that are perfectly OK. Like blue eyes...

So, if anyone has observed a significant number of progeny from a primary cross, I'd be interested in finding out what kinds of variations were observed. Similarly, if anyone has seen a wild population of paphs, I'd be interested in knowing what kind of variations were observed.

Thanks!

Alright, now we're getting somewhere. This is why we are looking into molecular markers for our Paphs, and that is what our plant geneticist is for.

Okay, what traits would you like to know about Paphiopedilum? There is so much to talk about, just start me out anywhere really.

How bout something very basic

How many chromosomes per various paph species, and is the bulk of genes common to the same chromosomes from species to species(subgenerato subgenera)

I've just gotten a copy of Guido Braem's Paphiopedilum book, and in it, the number of chromosomes for each species is listed when known. It seems that the most common number is 26 chromosomes. If you have specific species in mind, let me know and I'll look it up for you.

Is there a table that can be scanned and posted?

There's no table, but at some point, I'll tabulate the numbers myself and send those interested a copy.

I've seen short tables for different subgenera, but not all at one time.

I'd like to know if there is allot of overlap of genes on the same chromosomes.

i.e. is the gene for black petal warts in P glanduliferum on the same chromosome as for P calosum. Or does that even make a difference if you're trying to increase black warts?

Rick, if you're into taxonomy, that is the Paph book I would recommend!

I try not to be, but its easy to get caught up in it. I'll have to check it out.

I also need to get off my butt and get Lance's book.

Thanks Peter.

I also need to get off my butt and get Lance's book.

I need to get off mine and READ Lance's book, LOL! Actually, I have lots to read this weekend....all that Antec stuff on fertilizing and pH and such, still trying to get my head around that...sigh...

I'll have a table made up shortly to give all the chromosome counts.

All the polyantha are 2n=26. I think a few go as high as 48, and as low as 18, off the top of my head.

Thanks Steve!

I also recommend Guido's latest book. I have met him a few times and argued with him on a couple points, but he is still THE authority IMHO. I am especially fond of the idea of taxa and complexes instead of species when it comes to plants like hirsutissimum/esquirolei etc. He also used the award photo of Paphiopedilum kalinae 'Ramona Cox' HCC-CHM/AOS in his new book that was grown by my great friend and mentor Tom Cox (who most of my plants came from). His "germanglish" exuberance when he saw the plant in person was priceless...Sorry for getting so off topic.

As for genetics, is there a marked gene for multiflowering on an inflorescense? Or some gene that causes the meristem on the apical tip of the inflorescense to stop growing...or is this a hormone thing? I imagine this could be one of your research secrets, since who wouldn't want a rothschildianum with 20 flowers on one inflorescense?

Gene manipulation is a great frontier IMO...I still don't understand all the controversy around things like GlowFish. Ignorance of the actual process seems to be the problem...but I am biased...I want plants that don't make a glow-in-the-dark gene or blue-coloring gene naturally to have one if it is feasable. I am also a sucker/collector of variegated plants...especially orchids, and would love to have more that didn't cost an arm and a leg that could be more easily produced if these genes were changed. Oh well, I'm rambling now...
Jon

If you're interested in those genes, just keep watching me, and you'll see them before the next decade. Now, the blue is going to be amazingly hard, and that might take a whole decade and a half. But as soon as we rip it out of Thelymitra, sequence it, and use markers to find out where to put the gene in paphs, you'll see the first blue paphs.

In that case...KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!
I will look forward for the results.
Jon

I'd like to continue discussion of some of the posting on genetics in the Paph fairrieanum thread...

1) Following up on SteveT's point on stolonous armeniacum plants: Are any armenicum or micranthum hybrids stolonous? Has anyone possibly observed F1 selfings/sib crosses of these hybrids?

2) beskriver -- I'm curious to know why "expressed potential gene markers" would likely be better than non-coding microsatellites or AFLPS or RAPDs. Could you elaborate?

3) Has anyone tried making a 4N Paph x 4N Phrag?

I don't think polyploidy is the solution for paph phrag crosses, but it could help. We actually have many theories we're working with this, on not only why it doesn't work, but how to circumvent the security the plant has in shutting down the germination. The technology and experience of using it is the hard commodity to come by, the money is easy enough which also entails the growing space. Give me a couple years out of college and I should have enough cash onhand for a few acres of greenhouses. We've already got the lab equipment we need.

2) beskriver -- I'm curious to know why "expressed potential gene markers" would likely be better than non-coding microsatellites or AFLPS or RAPDs. Could you elaborate?

Here is what my breeder wrote back:

The elaboration to this is that "expressed potential gene markers" take more money to develop and you have more of the sequence to use as a probe. So it's a more accurate test and you get better results as well as knowing what your results are. With AFLP or RAPDs you are relying on single nucletide polymorphisms or several nucletide polymorphisms to generate differences in restriction sites. These restriction sites are then amplifed with PCR to run on gels. The bands will show up just like genes would however it is highly highly unlikely that the segment you have on gel is a gene. more likely a difference in a gene. The microsatellites are great for marking a gene but they as well tell you nothing about the gene. So the expressed potential gene markers are good because you may have an idea of exactly what that gene will do in some organisms as well as the intended (paph). However the reason the other marker systems are used is because they are much less expensive to do. Finding and sequencing a gene is very difficult and very costly.

If you're interested in those genes, just keep watching me, and you'll see them before the next decade. Now, the blue is going to be amazingly hard, and that might take a whole decade and a half. But as soon as we rip it out of Thelymitra, sequence it, and use markers to find out where to put the gene in paphs, you'll see the first blue paphs.

while you're at it, by all means find a damn GROW gene from a maudiae-type paph and please insert it into some of the coryopedilums. oh yeah, and maybe you could find a BLOOM gene and put it into rolfei.

I believe the rolfei you are referring to are almost enitrely from an antec cross, so no surprises there.

As for the polyantha, the will require breeding for vigorous and robust plants. It is on its way. For example, there are many rothschildianum forms that will bloom on 12-15" single growth leafspans.

I believe the rolfei you are referring to are almost enitrely from an antec cross, so no surprises there.

As for the polyantha, the will require breeding for vigorous and robust plants. It is on its way. For example, there are many rothschildianum forms that will bloom on 12-15" single growth leafspans.

did you get ripped off by antec or something? it's no secret rolfei isn't the easiest thing to bloom. from whatever cross. and i have yet to see a roth blooming on a 12" plant, much less a GOOD roth blooming on a plant less than 20-24+ across. why take 5+ years per generation of selective breeding when you can insert the grow genes in one shot? poke poke.

Ripped off? No, but that is where pretty much all of them came from, as far as I have seen. Most of them from a commercial grower in florida whom was growing them for antec, but then had a falling out with them. There is no reason you should have to grow out so many adult growths before the first of them bloom. That is just a bad cross. For example, Gemstone's Randschild (randsii x roth) is typically another monster. It takes many adult growths before becoming a good bloomer. However, I have recently remade it with parents which bloomed on single adult growths, so we should have much better results than what others have done in the past.

I don't believe there is some specific 'grow' gene. The problem is overcoming the C3 metabolism of paphs, which is regrettably slow. And first, assuming it was one single gene, we would have to find it. There's 10 years. Then we would need a method of reliably cloning paphs. Then we would have to transform it, another year. Then we would have to grow the plants up, another 3 years. While this is not impossible in theory, it is exorbitant in price. It is much easier just to breed the roths. And you can visit my phytosophy.org image gallery and see a nice roth blooming on a 22" growth, Rex x MM.

All I am reading is clicking and popping... :poke: Hey lets talk about government or economics... I can talk about that maybe....world history? All subjects I have been lucky enough to teach... :evil:

Somebody asked if micranthum produce stolons. Well I have a single growth micranthum that has a stolon moving 2 inches away from the plant and growing nicely. Although I have not heard nor seen a malipoense producing stolon. Has anyone? :?:

I was repotting some armeniacum and micranthums yesterday many of them had stolons running down the sides of the pots. Will they eventually head north? Thats alot of extra travel for these plants.

Somebody asked if micranthum produce stolons. Well I have a single growth micranthum that has a stolon moving 2 inches away from the plant and growing nicely. Although I have not heard nor seen a malipoense producing stolon. Has anyone? :?:

mali can produce stolons, but not nearly as often as armeniacum.

But as soon as we rip it out of Thelymitra, sequence it, and use markers to find out where to put the gene in paphs, you'll see the first blue paphs.

while you're at it, by all means find a damn GROW gene from a maudiae-type paph and please insert it into some of the coryopedilums. oh yeah, and maybe you could find a BLOOM gene and put it into rolfei.

Well blue paph already exist, only 1 single plant has ever been found, from the cochlopetalum section, undescribed. It has leaves reminiscent of Delenatii fma. Dünkel, with the red margin all around them.

Coryopedilums... get good plants of any species and they are as fast growers as any maudiae type. Of course, good plants are far and very few between.

What an outrageous claim! I have never seen a blue paph, nor the pigments coming up in paphs for blue. Perhaps a horticultural blue which is really purple, but surely no blue. I would love to get my hands on it, or at least a picture.

That would be very interesting to see!

What an outrageous claim! I have never seen a blue paph, nor the pigments coming up in paphs for blue. Perhaps a horticultural blue which is really purple, but surely no blue. I would love to get my hands on it, or at least a picture.

Why can't you believe that ?

We all know in other orchid's species, blue color is a true color, so isn't it possible it could exist in Paph's ?

Is it because you've never sawn one that you can state it does not exist ?

As for me, I'm pretty hurry to see one in flowers !

Let's bring out those blue chromosones!

What an outrageous claim! I have never seen a blue paph, nor the pigments coming up in paphs for blue. Perhaps a horticultural blue which is really purple, but surely no blue. I would love to get my hands on it, or at least a picture.

Why can't you believe that ?

We all know in other orchid's species, blue color is a true color, so isn't it possible it could exist in Paph's ?

Is it because you've never sawn one that you can state it does not exist ?

As for me, I'm pretty hurry to see one in flowers !

Blue occurs very rarely, including in orchids. There are only a couple geni that I can think of that produce true blue, and that would be the dendrobium victoriae-reginae, and Thelymitras. Cattleyas and the like are certainly not blue by any stretch of the imagination, and purple is not blue in my book.

One day, you might have to change your opinion about blue Paph.

But until then, have nice dreams :lol: :therethere:

Ooooh a blue paph! Would it be called Paph blueii?

Wow!! Sure wish that is was that easy to move genes around in Paphs. We don't even know a partial gene content for any linkage group in Paphs let alone have the real ablility yet to insert color genes. The pigment genes in orchids are very complex and the work I have tried in Phals convinces me that it will be many years before the technology is advanced enough for a well funded group to make much progress in it. I started to try to insert a blue gene in a Phalaenopsis but after a year of work it became obvious that I was looking at several years (minimum) of work and perhaps millions of dollars. Nice, but it isn't going to happen any time soon. In the meantime go ahead and dream of those blue Paphs because that is about as close as you are going to get. In Phals, what passes for blue is the result of multiple pigments and a set of multiple alleles to make it more complex. HP Norton is having some success because he selected for satuarated color for several generations and had the good luck (and a keen eye) to obtain some plants with the pigment that contributes the "blue" as the major pigment (out of three present).

ADS, besides anthocyanins, carotenes, and chlorophylls, what pigments contribute to the color of a flower? Is there a resource that you know of (book, article, etc.) that would explain color expression and suppression in detail? Thanks

--Stephen