I just came accross this : Kovachii futures on Orchid Limited web site

http://www.orchidweb.com/cat_dtl.asp?P_Recno=3846&f_pagenumber=1&tpn=1//url

I am "astonished" (to say the least) about the terms of this offer, and especially things like

"If the plants suddenly die from disease or insect infestation Orchids Limited will not be held liable for any losses"

being here in Europe, I have a feeling such terms would never be accepted, so I was just wondering what you guys think about this.... :ohmy:

( not sure about what section I should be posting this in....)

I just read this part, that makes me feel less annoyed by their terms:

If something should happen to your plant(s) and we are not able to fulfill your order, you will certainly be notified. You can still use the deposit towards any other plant purchases from the Orchids Limited web site www.orchidweb.com.

That is total rediculus (sorry about the spelling) . Anyone that sends them money is crazy. In the next few years there will be lots of the plants available. This spring the other nursery down in Peru will be shipping there plants also. Once the 2 year ban is up we will see plants coming from everywhere. The people who got them first will try to make a fortune off of them. Just like the first besseae's. Before you can flower out a kovachii there will be crosses ready to flower out. I think if you want a plant that bad buy a flask or split on some flasks and have them sent. Here in Can they are leagal to bring in so I would imagine it is the same in the U.S.A as they are alraedy down there. There is lots of people in the U.S.A and Can that have flasks. If you just want one to own than I would wait. If you are going to use it in crosses than buy a flask and get them growing. I think when spring comes in 2006 both nurserys will be selling them for less than at first as they have had time to make more seed pods and crosses.This is my opinon and I am one that would love to have one or two plants or more to make crosses with and I am waiting till spring to see what happens. But I would never pay what Orchid Limited wants.

neither would I pay those prices! Rossell is correct. The market will soom be flooded with kovachii and it's crosses.

Who set that 2 year limit on these flasks? Was it INRENA? What was the purpose of not releasing the plants from these flasks for 2 years? It seems counter-productive to conservation have it.

I have been in contact with a person who seems to be "on the inside" of the Phrag. kovachii saga. He has been warning me about PeruFlora and their plants for some time. I just received an email from him that includes the following: (I've left off names and personal messages.)
________________
I remember a long time ago that you asked me if your employer should purchase Phrag. kovachii flasks from Manolo Arias (Peruflora) and warning you against such a purchase. Flasks of 50-60 seedlings were sold for US$ 1,060.- .

After the WOC in Dijon, several of my friends did purchase flasks and sent me pictures. I called Arias' flasks garbage. (two names) went to Peru to pick up flasks that were just as bad.

I asked (them) to please send me pictures of their flasks........they had excuses why they could not send them to me. Right don't show others the crap you purchased simply because you were so anxious having this species on your shelf. Many people purchased flasks because they have illegal Pk plants. They want to tell people all they sell is from legal flasks..

I do know US citizens who have illegal Pk plants and will at all costs purchase a legal flask to hide the contraband behind... A well respected former AOS official walked in on (one man) and met him in the greenhouse, he immediately spotted a Pk in bloom. I had talked to the man who has the Pk, not that long before, for I knew he had been to the Pk habitat in Peru I suspected to pick up illegal plants. When I steered the conversation in that direction, I was told he went there only to take pictures of the Pk. (Right guy, tell me another fairy tale!!!)

One other story is emerging now. Peruflora lists 140 purchasers of Pk flasks, some as the picture shows purchased 6 flasks so they Peruflora has sold an estimated 800 flasks. There is no way in hell that 5 plants produce enough seeds for that many flasks. The story is that Pk seeds were purchased by Manuel Arias, after he had made enemies by accusing others of being smugglers of Pk. (he was the top name on that list!!!) Now the story goes that his enemies had a hand in Pk seeds being sold to Arias as Pk seeds, that in fact were not Pk seeds. If Arias sold them as Pk flasks, then Peruflora is finished.

Here are some facts: Pk plants produce few capsules, Pk seed capsules produce few seeds, many Pk seeds have no embryo, many Pk seeds with embryos are not viable. Thus if you start with percentages of percentages of percentages, etc. etc. you end up with very few seeds that germinate of 5 plants.
Now Arias is applying for export permits for Pk divisions and claims to have 90 divisions. Bullshit again. If you take all the divisions of Phrags you will have no flowers and no seeds!! But at Arias, you can apparently have your cake and eat it.

The hybrids propagated by Arias may not work out either, for at least one parent is self pollinating. Thus if the seedlings flower out and do not look at all like Pk, Arias can say, well they took the characteristics from their non-Pk parent.

You may tell this to others, just leave my name off and simply tell them your source has asked his name be kept out of this.
______________
So, as I've said before, be carefull...
Dot

I have been in contact with a person who seems to be "on the inside" of the Phrag. kovachii saga. He has been warning me about PeruFlora and their plants for some time.

One other story is emerging now. Peruflora lists 140 purchasers of Pk flasks, some as the picture shows purchased 6 flasks so they Peruflora has sold an estimated 800 flasks. There is no way in hell that 5 plants produce enough seeds for that many flasks. The story is that Pk seeds were purchased by Manuel Arias, after he had made enemies by accusing others of being smugglers of Pk. (he was the top name on that list!!!) Now the story goes that his enemies had a hand in Pk seeds being sold to Arias as Pk seeds, that in fact were not Pk seeds. If Arias sold them as Pk flasks, then Peruflora is finished.

Here are some facts: Pk plants produce few capsules, Pk seed capsules produce few seeds, many Pk seeds have no embryo, many Pk seeds with embryos are not viable. Thus if you start with percentages of percentages of percentages, etc. etc. you end up with very few seeds that germinate of 5 plants.
Now Arias is applying for export permits for Pk divisions and claims to have 90 divisions. Bullshit again. If you take all the divisions of Phrags you will have no flowers and no seeds!! But at Arias, you can apparently have your cake and eat it.



I just want to make a few comments to the above post. Not trying to start a fight with your source, just adding what I know.

I kinda feel like I am on the ´inside´ as well. Almost every orchid conversation that I have in Ecuador touches on kovachii. I spent 4 days at PeruFlora and stayed at Manolos house. I have been to 3 of PeruFloras greenhouses and to their lab. I have seen their legal kovachii plants, there kovachii flasks and their kovachi mother flask. I have also had conversations and lunch with Alfredo Manrique, the other legal owner of flasks.

I have also heard that Perufloras flasks might not be pure. Manolo is a smart man, he would not risk his buisness buy doing that. If there if truth in the rumor that he bought seeds, them maybe the seeds he bought wern´t kovachii. Except that kovachii has a very hairy ovary and a capsule would be easy to distinhuish. But he could of used dry seed. Except with all the humidity down here, the seed would for sure be very contaminated and difficult to sow (but not impossible). When I saw his plants, they were without capsules or spikes. I was told that after two back to back seasons of carring capsules, he was giving them a rest.

Could he have gotten a lot of seed from the 5 plants he collected? Yes, he collected the 5 largest plants he could find. He would probably of gotten more then 5 blooms, maybe 3 times that. And some spikes can have 2 flowers. About 3 or 4 months ago, INRENA seized another 50 plants. PeruFlora was given permission to pollenate those plants. I don´t know how many they pollenated. But they collected the capsules 2 weeks ago.

As I said, I have seen the PeruFlora plants. Manolo does not have 90 divisions. He made no mention of applying for permits when I was with him. From what he told me about INRENA, they would never give him a permit to do that and Manolo knows better then to ask. Some countries consider division an acceptable form of ´artificial propagation´, but CITIES will not allow any wild collected Appendix 1 species out of its own country, niether will it grant import permits for wild collected material. There are exceptions for scientific purposes.

Manolo told me he was only allowed to export around 150 flasks in 2005.

From what I observed in the wild, yes, most plants do not get pollenated. I only saw 3 capsules, all one one clump. But, I have heard they are full of seed and they germiante and grow very fast. I know of some people with seed who have confirmed this. However, Alfredo Manrique said germiantion was poor. Could be the media he used. Alfredo is having a hell of a time getting permits, when I spoke with him last he still was not succesful. That very well could of changed.

I hope all those who have bought flasks, end up with the right plants.

Kyle

This saga will continue. I also know a person on the inside and I will not go there.
Buyer beware. It is very corroupt down there. All they want is $$$.

Kyle, thanks very much for your input. It is refreshing to get info from someone who has actually been to Peruflora and seen what the situation really is. I would guess from what I know about the flasks in this country that having abundant viable seed was not a problem. If it was there would not have been so many (possibly too many) plants in the flasks. Since that rumor is apparently false it is possible that much of what is being said about Pk and Peruflora is also false. Time (relatively short time) will tell. In the meantime it would be wise for all of us to relax and wait and not let a few people make a killilng on this wonderful Phrag that we will all probably own if a very short time. Before we all run out and buy hybrids, it would be nice to know if Phrag. kovachii is a tetraploid or a diploid. This would make a lot of difference in the hybrids. I am not really very thrilled about all of the triploid Phrags now available.
Dean Stock

Well stated Dr. Stock!

The saga continues. I have decided that I am not in a rush. :wink:

Great thread! It would be nice to get some insight from the people who are directly involved with the production and distribution of kovachii.

As for the Orchids Limited offer... Wow what a total rip-off. This is the sort of thing that makes me not order from companies because I feel they can't be trusted. My guess would be this offer does more harm than good for Orchids Limited.

As for the id question, how long will we have to wait for the seedlings to bloom? I know it's a bit of schadenfreude but I find watching these sorts of controversies to be hilarious.

Next question! How complicated is a chromosome squash? It seems like aside from the need for a good quality microscope, all of the other stuff could be done without too much expense.

--Stephen

So where can I get one of these kovachii???

The sad thing in all this is how available this plant is despite all the controversy. I know more sources for illegal plants than legal ones and the prices have really come down. If you're a commercial grower obviously this plant would be a very harmful thing to have seen, but everyone I know with them are private hobby growers who only tell friends about them. It's good to see they are still in the wild, so hopefully these plants I keep hearing of are divisions from other growers and not further poaches. I haven't really cared to own one because there's a lot of other plants and fish I would rather have for the money, but for the money with these stories of false labelling, the divisions almost get more in demand because you can be sure of their ID. CITES needs to allow pollenia and seed if they're ever going to hope to lower demand for newly discovered species, because right now they are only hurting people trying to do it legitimately while the wild ones still get removed.

I am not surprised by OLs prices, from my experience they cost more on in demand stuff but it comes well grown. I'm sure these prices will not hurt them as that seems to be the market they go for. I am just thankful this is a Phrag that will probably bloom in two years and not something like sanderianum that will still cost a $1000 for a blooming one many years after its discovery since it takes many years to get to blooming size.

I made it through the vietnamense hype without buying one, I think this one will be the same for me.

Jon

Stephen, since you asked the question about chromosome squashes, I have worked with chromosomes of about everything from mosquitos to whales but after over 30 years of experience I still find orchid chromosome work a real challange. I know of no one that does it commercially for orchids because it takes so much time and effort. It takes a grad student (slave labor) to really get much of it done. I may get a shot at Phrag. kovachii chromosomes in a year or so if someone hasn't done it before then. There are some really good orchid chromosome researchers in South America and perhaps they will publish it first.
Dean Stock

I knew that as soon as I posted the availability of Phrag. kovachii there would be controversy. I will try and answer as many questions as I can. I did go to Peru and picked up Legal flasks with permits. I saw the parent plants. I am confident that the seedlings are labeled correctly but I did not make the cross and I did not so the seed. I do trust Manolo Arias. I put all of those disclaimers on my site because I know that in the business of dealing with perishable plants anything can happen. I also know that I can not tell what the future will be like 1 year and 4 months from now. I have been doing this since 1978 so I have had a few experiences in the Orchid world. I know of the backbiting and falsehoods that can so easily be spread. These things are damaging and are slanderous. It is easy to get caught up in gossip but the truth is often unknown. Anyone who knows me and knows of my business is aware that I am not out to screw anyone. If something goes wrong or gets fouled up I do all I can to correct the problem within reason. If someone wants to pay me a lot of money or only a little money for a plant that is his or her choice. What might seem expensive to some may not to others.

I remeber when everyone thought that Phrag. besseae would sell for $10.00 or $15.00 because so many would be produced. Good besseae's still command an average price of $50.00 to $75.00 and select ones still sell for hundreds to thousands of dollars. Does everyone want all orchids to be $10.00? If so than no one will end up caring about them because there is no value. They would become throw away items.

Now as to costs. I am charging a price which includes overnight shipping. $225.00 is not a great deal of money when you consider that I have already spent well over $11,000.00 for 8 flasks (this includes transporation and trip costs). I also spent 4 days of travel time plus another 4 days getting the whole trip arranged. I am presently paid anywhere between $175.00 to $350.00 per hour when I do consulting work for hobbyists or commercial nurseries. This work supplements our income so my time is worth something as well. I am also spending 2 years of effort and care to grow these plants to the best of my ability. Next time you go out to a fancy restaurant and spend $200.00 on a meal what do you have the next day? Surely an interesting orchid plant is worth more than that.

I am in this business for a number of reasons. First I love Orchids, Secondly I like meeting people who have similar interests and thirdly I am in business to make a profit so that my family and my employees can eat and live. I hope to make enough of a profit each year to put something away for retirement.

This is not an easy business to be in. Often times people get the impression that Orchid growers make a killing selling orchids. I am here to tell you that they do not. Next time you are at any of your favorite orchid nurseries ask the owners if it is easy or if they make a great income from their business. Ask them if there are ever days when they stop and think why did I ever do this or if they haven't thought about getting out of it. There are many complexities in this business like dealing with mechanical equipment, insects, diseases, theft, power outages, employees, government entities, customers happy and unhappy ones plus thousands of orchid plants to care for. There are astronomical heating bills this year. I can buy a nice new Mecedes for what I am spending on natural gas. Then there is maintaining websites, Going to Orchid Shows which can take a week of time to do one show. We have no idea how much money we will make at any show. Then we have to defend ourselves at times on Orchid forums because people communicate things that are not always accurate and usually have hearsay as their source. I know that if it were not for the fact that I love what I do I could make far more money doing something else.

As to Phrag. kovachii it is a magnificent plant. This plant will change the world of Phragmipedium breeding. I have done a lot of research on it's culture. Our nursery has counted the chromosomes on the root tips and we now know that kovachii is a diploid and 2n=32. We also counted the chromosomes on the phrag. fischeri and 2n= 36.

If any of you out there would like to ask me questions or make comments about any of these issues why not call me on the phone or e-mail me directly.


Best regards for a Happy New Year to all, Jerry Lee Fischer

holy crap! that's a diploid?! does that mean a tetraploid can be significantly bigger?!
orchids are kool....

Thanks for the reply, Jerry, and welcome to the forum! :D Obviously, we each have to make choices on what our orchid budget is. But I will say one thing: In the years that I have dealt with Jerry and the crew at Orchids, Ltd., I have always received plants of the highest quality. We all know that not all plants are genetically equal. When Jerry uses the word select, it means a high quality plant with good vigor, not the the slow growing, difficult plants that form a percentage of most crosses.

I've enjoyed this thread as much as any posted for a long time. I think we all want to be in on the latest news on new discoveries and certainly this is a BIG one!!!

Personally, I hope Orchids Ltd. sells every one of their plants for that kind of money! If I had the plants and was one of the first public offerings I'd charge that kind of money too (and so would you)! There are LOTS of people that will be glad to buy many of these plants at those prices just because they HAVE to have one right away.

Also, I think selling "futures" is a great marketing strategy to get a jump start on the many other sources that are out there! This is a great example of the open market! Another nice thing about this offering that we don't see much of is the web page showing quality photos of the breeder plants. It is all nicely done!

It will be interesting to see how the market changes as the many other sources get into the game and drive the prices down to where most of us can get a few of these beauties! My prediction is that the prices will drop somewhat over the next year but I don't expect them to be within reach of my wallet for a while. These will be pricey plants for quite some time. That's fine with me because the selected seedlings will just get better and better over time. Then there will be all the hybrids that will be hitting the market!!!

A couple of questions...

Some seem to be worried about the authenticity of kovachii seedings. Can kovachii plants be identified by the red colors on the base of the growths like we saw in the recent in-situ photos submitted by another lister?

What is the leaf span of a BS kovachii? It it an easy grower?

How much larger/brighter/redder/better are bessae plants today then they were when they were first introduced?

What would your dream-kovachii hybrid be? kovachii x caudatum, x warscewiczianum, x Don Wimber, x Jason Fischer.......wow

How much lemonade do my kids need to sell to the local construction workers in order to buy a "Grand Reserve Plant"???

Happy New Year!

Garland

LOL, Garland, I like your last question!

Hi Jerry, Welcome to the forum!
You make many good points that frankly, I think should be considered when we choose to do business with any orchid grower. It IS a tough business and seeing so many folks go out of business in 2005 has been an eye-opener for me. Personally, I don't mind paying a bit more for quality plants and I enjoy supporting vendors who clearly care immensly about the plants they are growing.

re: kovachii, I've been staying kinda quiet on this topic, mostly because my thoughts are often changing on the topic.
I'm really interested in seeing how these do in culture, and I think that growing them in optimum conditions for a while, since they are so new, is important to their eventual success. I think it's going to take a little time and patience before I know that these will grow well in my care.

Here is the response I received from my contact:
________
Hi Dot,

The person who claims to be on the inside? Sorry, not so.

When I say Arias, I refer to Manuel Arias Silva, Manolo's father. He owns the Arias empire. If you don't know that little, you are on the outside. Seen three greenhouses, then you have not seen all of them. You better believe it, when Manuel Arias requests export permits for 90 Pk divisions, he's got them.

Before 2005 came to an end, Peruflora listed already 140 Pk flask purchasers on their web site. I know of one who purchased six flasks, another three. Jerry Fischer of Orchids Limited purchased at least three. No one knows the exact number, but Manolo. I firmly believe that eight hundred flasks sold to date is more realistic than one hundred and fifty.

Two hundred big flasks of PK seedlings are impossible to propagate from just five legal Pk plants, let alone 800 flasks, even if each plant had 10 new growths.The 2003 report, by a well known person in slipper orchid circles, that Alfredo's plants had as many as twenty new growths each, was incorrect. I called Alfredo right away; the maximum he counted for me was nine.

The illegal Pk plants of two vendors confiscated in Peru, by last report are all dead. My information is that they were not given to Arias for seed production, reason, I believe, is that by CITES definition these AP centers must have and maintain five plants, I could be wrong on that, but I don't think I am. The plants ended up at Universities, who lack proper Pk climate conditions and orchid culture skills, which would explain why they expired.

The Peru University I was at did not have orchid culture books in their library. Biology Profs and students from all over Peru confirmed similar conditions at their own University, a big problem for them. They are aware that Club Peruano de Orquideas has very knowledgeable members who could teach them, but they can not join the club. CPO has 28 members, I know nine of them and five are close friends. CPO is not an orchid society like most others in the world. It was not set up to disseminate information to the general public. CPO elects its members, you can not go there, pay a fee and become a member, you have to be nominated and voted in by all members.

I know about the Universities because I taught orchid culture courses to Biology Professors and their students, from across Peru, including, in my opinion, Peru's best orchid biologist Ricardo Fernandez. If you followed the Pk saga from the beginning you will remember him.

As far as seed production from the 5 biggest clumps of legally collected Pk mother plants, it is extremely poor, according to the first owner of 5 legal Pk plants, Alfredo Manrique, whom I have known for many years. Alfredo is an honest man, who will neither work with illegal Pk seeds, nor illegal Pk plants. Those who purchase Pk flasks from Alfredo do not need to worry, they will get Pk seedlings, one hundred percent.

Alfredo Manrique has 2.5 years experience growing and flowering Pk plants and received the first AOS award. Alfredo's experience that Pk plants produce very few viable seeds is confirmed by Lee Moore, the well known long time collector of orchids in Peru. Lee Moore, whom I have also known for a long time has a nursery in Moyobamba, not that far from the Pk habitats. Lee has traveled to all the known Pk habitats, when they were first discovered, before they were stripped bare of Pk. Lee will tell anyone that the percentage of mature plants in their natural habitat having seed capsules, (note, I say seed capsules,) was so low that Peruflora would have had a hard time finding enough viable seeds at any given moment for all the Pk flasks it sold.

How nice and refreshing to hear the truth. Alfredo shows he is not willing to lie about seed quantity, which if he did would mean more money in his till. One grower says lots of seeds are produced on his five plants , the other says very few seeds are produced on his five plants. In view of what I said about money in the till. You be the judge, it is not hard to figure out who speaks the truth.

It was not Manolo Arias who received INRENA's Pk license 002 and collected 5 legal Pk plants. It was Manuel Arias Silva, his father.. There was a political need to transfer all Manuel's business to Manolo.

It appears that INRENA finally will issue more Pk permits to Peruvian nurseries that register with them. That is good news.

As far as the response from the slipper forum contributor who believes the truth can be found by traveling to Peruflora and meeting Manolo Arias, and that an abundance of seedlings, runts, protocorms in Manolo's Pk flasks are the result of seeds sown and prove that Pk's produce many seeds. What a lot of nonsense!

The Arias family had no experience in flasking when Pk was discovered, only in collecting orchids from the habitats and culturing them in greenhouses until they were sold. I have been at their greenhouses and I know. Some who recently traveled to the Arias greenhouses may have seen some evidence of propagation in-vitro, but that was not the case before Pk came on the scene. Pk flasks are the first flasks Arias ever sold in decades of operation.

The first Peruflora Pk flasks were recycled whiskey bottles. These appear to be Mother flasks, rather than carefully replated flasks. Peruflora flasks in which medium and seedlings did not get as mixed up as in most, show no carefully spaced same size seedlings as professionally replated flasks for market would. These flasks show small seedlings of many sizes, runts; even many protocorms and what is worse, clusters of proliferation, multiplication, whatever you like to call it. It appears that these are flasks in which seeds were directly sown, Mother flasks, not replated flasks as one would expect them to be. The more recent flasks offered by Peruflora are small size replated flasks with ten seedlings, as seen and offered on their website.

Don't be too happy when you purchase a so called replated flasks of 25 seedlings and find many more as a result of multiplication from roots, not propagated from seeds. Don't say WOW about extra quantity, instead worry about quality! I have propagated orchid in-vitro for 20 years; I sell the best flasks money can buy. Experienced flaskers will know what I am talking about.

Observing what is in their Pk flasks DOES WORRY THOSE WHO HAVE NO ILLEGAL PK's, for they purchased a flask in order to have what is for them an extremely desirable species.

The same observation DOES NOT WORRY those who purchased the flasks to have license for their own illegal seedlings.

Orchids Limited TERMS for Phragmipedium kovachii futures , featuring Manolo Arias' Pk flasked seedlings, do reflect in my opinion the fear people have of Peruflora Pk flask content, as I have said in my previous e-mail to you. I notice on your forum some strong opinions on those TERMS, ridiculous is one expression. I agree, they are ridiculous, except to those who see them as a smoke screen.

I do agree with one forum comment: "In 2007 the gates are down for illegal Pk's". The market will be flooded and the same fate that befell Phragmipedium besseae will be repeated with Pk, prices will tumble down from ridiculous to reasonable. Everyone who loves to have a Pk can afford one then.

Hi All,

As far as P. kovachii availability and pricing over the next 2-3 years, market forces will, of course, prevail; you cannot sidestep the issue of supply and demand. If the supply of legal plants is adequate, prices must, and will, come down.

As far as Orchids, Ltd. is concerned, I have known Jerry and Yoko Fischer for all of the years they have been in business. In fact, Jerry was instrumental in my decision to start Fox Valley Orchids, Ltd. in 1987. He is my friend. I have never known him to be anything but honest in all those years of dealing with him, and he continues to be one of my valued suppliers. He has not always been the low cost option, because quality stud plants are never cheap, and that's what he uses to make his seedlings. I am not in the habit of providing testimonials about my competition, but this needed to be said.


Best Regards,

Tom

contravesry is fun!

I have never actually ordered plants from OL, but I did buy $400 worth of books a while back, which all arrived promptly and in great shape.

In my personal opinion, the kovachii futures are way overpriced. I understand that energy and travel costs, etc. all suck up money, but the total value of the futures for sale is $75,000. My guess would be the market will be flooded with legal and illegal-posing-as-legal plants in a year and a half's time.

When besseae was introduced, phrags weren't nearly as popular and widespread as they are now. Kovachii, however, is being introduced at a time when phrags are everywhere (thanks to besseae). It will not be sold to the connoisseur, but rather everyone will want one. The race is not to be the first to have them for sale, but to be the first to have thousands for sale. Improved sowing technique, and the presence of what I would guess to be hundreds, if not thousands, of illegal plants in this country being used to create thousands of flasks, will hopefully flood the market with seedlings.

Yes, it is unfair to those who actually took the time and effort to get legal flasks, but it is the reality of the situation.

--Stephen

My guess would be the market will be flooded with legal and illegal-posing-as-legal plants in a year and a half's time.

I wonder if any authorities are going to even try to go after the illegals. The legals have been genetically fingerprinted, I understand but who's going to take the time and effort to try to bust the criminals? If it happens that the people who went to the time, effort and expense to obtain legal plants get screwed out of their investment because of the smugglers I just may become cynical(er) 8)

Thanks to all who have welcomed me to the forum. I am excited to be part of it.

I will make some last comments about kovachii, our business and some info I know. Later, hopefully today I will post photos of our nursery and some of the seedlings we are growing of kovachii.

First of all if I do sell all of the futures of kovachii for $75,000.00 what of it? 8 to 10 percent of that will go to overnight shipping expenses. Of course this assumes I sell them all which I may or may not do. This is a very small percentage of my total sales over 2 years. I am sure you all must have a job or be in a business situation unless you are retired or are independently wealthy. Let me ask you, would you like the opportunity to get a raise in pay? Sure you would. That pay is directly linked to the goods or services you provide and the profit the company you own or work for makes. I know that there is huge profit out there in many industries like medical devices or software. A pair of jeans often costs a company 2-3 dollars to make yet they are sold for 15.00 or more. Profit is essential to everyones financial survival. Even if you are wealthy your income once came from profit or is dependent on your investments making a profit now.

Lets consider my terms for a moment ( I have modified them slightly to make them a little less repetitive). When any of you invest in the stock market or mutual funds are there any guarantees? No you could loose everything. You are warned when you buy them that loss could happen. Even money market funds could be lost but it is highly unlikely. I at least provide a gurantee. If I can't provide you with the correct plant I will try and aquire the right one for you or give you a credit for anything else we have. That is better than the stock market or mutual funds. Even if for some unlikely reason we can't provide you with the right plant at least you can get something of equal value.

As for the kovachii and 5 seed pods. Imagine 5 plantsthat might have several growths. Now lets say that some plants have 2-3 spikes and some have 4 spikes. Each spike has 2 flowers. Also imagine dividing the plants in the course of ownership or stewardship. Of course you can make more than 5 seed pods. I don't think one should compare ones successes against anothers failures. Every person who runs a lab knows that there are certain things that may do better for you depending on the media used and the condition that the seeds were sown in. Inmature seeds or improper medium or technique can have a tremendous influence.

I believe there is a lot of jealousy about this plant. People who don't have it or wanted to be first are trying to discredit others. This is wrong. I won't go into answering all of the points raised by phragfan even though I know most of the answers. I simply don't have the time and besides this person will just come up with more. It would be never ending.

I want to belong to this forum to share ideas about plants. I enjoy orchids and think they are the greatest things to grow and bloom. I enjoy most of the orchid people I meet. What a great equalizer. If I can't have fun belonging to this forum I will simply quit.

Future postings will be about ideas.

Jerry Lee Fischer

:welcome: Jerry,
Glad to have you around. And always happy to learn something from those who know more.

Unsolicited customer testimonial:
I've bought plants and supplies from Orchids Limited in the past. I've paid a bit more than I would have paid elsewhere, but the plants have been that much better on arrival than what I would have gotten elsewhere. I would gladly buy there again. You get what you pay for.

It feels like I have gotten myself into the middle of something that was not intended, either by myself or by my "contact." What seems to have happened in this forum is that it has become a perceived slam on the reputation of Jerry Fischer and perhaps other second party owners/vendors of Phrag. kovachii.

Again, there was no intention, directly or indirectly to question the reputation/intentions of Jerry or others who will be feeding the passions of us kovachii enthusiasts. The forum started out with remarks about the prices and terms on the "Kovachii Futures" page of O.L. My original post was placed there simply to warn people about the controversies surrounding the origins of kovachii plants and seeds.

My last sentence in the first post was simply, be careful. I stand by that statement. Jerry is being very careful for himself and his business, by his terms, as well he should be.

Caveat emptor.

Welcome Jerry,


I won't go into answering all of the points raised by phragfan even though I know most of the answers. I simply don't have the time and besides this person will just come up with more. It would be never ending.


Despite my better judgment, I will reply to some of what was said above. Phragfan, I understnd that these are not your views, you are just the messenger.

The 50 plants that were recently seized are not in the possestion of PeruFlora. They are at an INRENA compound. INRENA thinks that it is suspecious that the two nurseries are not having the same amount of success. PeruFlora was allowed to go to the compound and pollenate the plants. The day I was in Lima, The capsules were being collected and INRENA was going to the PeruFlora lab to watch them be flasked. They will observe the germination to find out if PeruFloras results are legit.

I do a bit of flasking myself and the correct media and pH can make a world of difference.

Yes, I have not been to all the greenhouses, but I was told that INRENA keeps a close eye on the plants. If Manolo had his way he would not keep them in Lima. The plants are not very happy. Both Manolo Arias and Alfredo Manrique are very nice guys and I don´t think either of them are dishonest or not telling the truth.

Kyle

I have been privy to some interesting conversations about kovachii since this thread has started and I know, for a fact, that kovachii and hybrids will be available in quantity before 2007. These are legal plants. I am not sure of the exact prices that they will be sold at. It appears that the price ranges that I have heard are much more reasonable than investing in the "futures of kovachii".

Hi Jerry. Thanks for the info on Phrag. kovachii and Phrag. fischeri. Who did the chromosome counting?? The counts are quite different from other counts that I have heard of for these two plants but I have not seen a photo of either. I will confirm the counts as soon as possible so that hybridizers will know waht they are in for in terms of compatibility.
Dean Stock

Hi Jerry & Stock -

Jerry: would you be willing to share data on the number of metacentric (X-shaped) and telocentric (Y-shaped) chromosomes observed for kovachii and fischeri?

Stock: would you be willing to share the karyptype info you've heard, as you allude? And, have you ever tried meiotic counts during pollen development?

All best for the new year,

Beskriver

Hi Besk. I am in the process of re-doing the chromosomes of all of the phrag species that I can get. Several are in the works now. As of todays info, I may have Phrag. kovachii root tip material this month to work on. Many of the counts now available date back as far as l929 and while they may be accurate, I have my doubts. I will make all of the information, including photos, available to all as soon as I have some of the major species done, including Phrag. kovachii. The chromosomes are much smaller (less repetitive DNA) than most Paph chromosomes and the numbers apparently vary between species groups much as in Paphs. This is not good news for hybridization and may require the same tetraploid approach to further breeding in Phrags as has been done in Paphs. Chromosome numbers in Phrags so far ranges from 18 to 32 with Phrag. sedenii having 24. Phrag. longifolium has been reported to have have 20 chromosomes and Phrag. caudatum 32, which is what has now been claimed for Phrag. kovachii. I have not yet seen a Phrag with 34 chromosomes and wonder if this count could have resulted from counting 32 chromosomes plus two satellites on the NOR bearing chromosomes. I am working on Phrag. besseae this week and as I recall it is supposed to have a higher count.
The number of chromosome arms does not mean much unless you do C-banding to dintinguish euchromatin from heterochromatic arms, so that work will also have to be done at some point.
Yes, I routinely do meiotic chromosomes on everything that I can get an immature bud on. As you might expect, no one has wanted to part with a Phrag. kovachii imature bud yet. That may have to wait until the "dust" settles.
Dean Stock

Dr. Robert Jan Quene runs my lab. He has a PHD in plant genetics/breeding and has a minor in taxonomy. I will direct chromosome questions to him. We are working on an article regarding chromosomes in phrags. We too have recounted nearly all of them. Phrag. fischeri has 36 which is the highest for phrags. Of course on has to be careful counting them and needs several root tips from different clones to get the right count. Tetraploid kovachii are already in the works but it will be some time before thiose are available. First one has to be sure they converted and secondly most growers will hang on to them to see them bloom and use them for further breeding.

Best regards, Jerry

Out of curiosity, what method is used to make a chromosome squash from orchid root tips using aceto-orcein? Is there a paper somewhere with the most up-to-date procedures? Karasawa references Tanaka and Kamemoto 1960, but I seem to remember seeing a revision somewhere. Where I saw it, however, remains a mystery.

--Stephen

More from my contact:
__________
After visiting the Slipper Forum, I came across these paragraphs dealing with what Glen Decker told folks at the Denver Orchid Society a little while back.

"just heard Glen Decker (of Piping Rock Orchids) talking today about kovachii, he's here in Colorado at the Denver Orchid Society show and sale. I'll be hearging more from him on Tuesday at his lecture, but he said that they have already made FOURTEEN kovachii hybrids! They are, at the moment, not allowed to remove them from Peru (or wherever their South American Greenhouses are; I assume Peru). "

"The folks at Piping Rock Orchids apparently have been doing their own propagating and breeding (legally, of course) in Peru, and they say that they are waiting for a permit from the Peruvian Govt. to be able to import them into the US. Mr. Decker wasn't able to give any firm estimate as to when his plants will be available in the US - but he said that he had just hired a new lawyer in Peru to help expedite things. His hopeful estimate ("pipe-dream, he called it) is that they will get the permits and put the plants on sale THIS SPRING. Pipe-dream, he said.
The better news is that he said that he would try to keep the price as LOW as possible, partially in order to protect the wild plants... he wants to flood the market with kovachii as quickly as possible. He said he didn't see why he should have to charge more than $35-50 per plant.
This is all information that he told the Denver Orchid Society this month, so no doubt some of you have heard it... just thought I'd pass it along"

Disappointing to me that INRENA should be bothered by Pk hybridizers, when more important tasks have not yet been completed by them.

- the world market has not yet been flooded with the threatened Pk species mass propagated in-vitro.
- collecting Pk in the wild has not yet been made non-profitable by flooding world markets with Pk
- conservation groups can not yet restock (sow seeds) depleted habitats for fear of having them ripped out again.

It is important to do the latter NOW, when plants taken from each former habitat can still be located and used for seed production.

Once that is all done, let the owners of legal Pk plants worry which hybrids they wish to make and when.

One hopes that the endangered Pk species' survival is more important to the orchid world and to the authorities charged with their protection than the creation of new hybrids. Perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part. Money and greed still rule many worlds, including the orchid world.

"just heard Glen Decker (of Piping Rock Orchids) talking today about kovachii, he's here in Colorado at the Denver Orchid Society show and sale. I'll be hearging more from him on Tuesday at his lecture, but he said that they have already made FOURTEEN kovachii hybrids! They are, at the moment, not allowed to remove them from Peru (or wherever their South American Greenhouses are; I assume Peru). "

"The folks at Piping Rock Orchids apparently have been doing their own propagating and breeding (legally, of course) in Peru, and they say that they are waiting for a permit from the Peruvian Govt. to be able to import them into the US. Mr. Decker wasn't able to give any firm estimate as to when his plants will be available in the US - but he said that he had just hired a new lawyer in Peru to help expedite things. His hopeful estimate ("pipe-dream, he called it) is that they will get the permits and put the plants on sale THIS SPRING. Pipe-dream, he said.
The better news is that he said that he would try to keep the price as LOW as possible, partially in order to protect the wild plants... he wants to flood the market with kovachii as quickly as possible. He said he didn't see why he should have to charge more than $35-50 per plant.
This is all information that he told the Denver Orchid Society this month, so no doubt some of you have heard it... just thought I'd pass it along"


Glen has gotten his permits and the plants are now safely here in the US. These are the plants that will be available sometime in 2006. Besides the 14 hybrids there are many flasks of the kovachii species. Hopefully, he is correct that this will take some of stress off the poaching of plants from the wild population. I believe it was Kyle that noted seedlings coming up in the areas where the mature plants were raped from. Hopefully, these will not be disturbed and the wild populations will return with time. My concern is that now that an alba form of kovachii has been reported, that poaching of plants will continue with the hope of getting other color forms.

Great info. I guess that is the trouble with "futures markets"!!!
Perhaps when plants of Phrag. kovachii do become available here the handling of Peruvian based hybrids will change. I may be expecting too much.
Dean Stock

About Peruflora flasks. I have in hands 6 hobby flasks of Pk selfings and must say that most of selfings looks very poor (only some I suspect not very popular selfings look like they should).It seems that plants were intensively multiplied on hormone inriched media and were replated just before shipment. Due to this fact they feel badly with notchatacteristic grassylike growth. Surely the flasks do not cost what they are asked for.
About orchidweb - I bought some plants from it and must say that plants are up to twice priced for the size and quality you may buy on US web market. It's not correct in my mind when You are buying the last weak manyyears slow growing seedlings at the price of tyhe first fast growing seedlings of the same por size. BUT! Its our choice when we BUY!

To Ron in NY and Others.

According to the INRENA officials, including INRENA'S lawyers Glen Decker had to sign the same agreement I signed which will only allow him to sell his plants in April of 07 not sometime in 06.

I am not sure who Paphic is but many of the plants we offer are made with our own parents and not available anywhere else. The parents used such as 4N plants may also determine a higher price. If paphic is having problems growing our plants why not contact us directly and we will see if we can help.

One thing I do not appreciate about forums is when customers trash growers publicly without even having the guts to contact them if there is a problem. Sometimes there are misconceptions. I believe the relationship between grower and customer is a private one and should be dealt with in that manner. These forums allow hobbyists to rate growers which may seem like a service to the public at large but just a couple of negative comments from one customer can damage the reputation and sales of a nursery. The sad thing is that these ratings or comments represent a very minute part of a percent of a nurserymans sales. We have many, many testimonials of people who have been delighted with our plants and who have ordered repeatedly. I wonder how many of the non commercial users of this and other forums would feel if growers got together and created a rating system or comment section for their customers?

I will post photos of my kovachii seedlings, I just haven't had the time yet.

Jerry Lee Fischer

Does anyone else wonder what Peter Crozen will do when all the excitement about kovachii is over?

Jerry,

I thought I might had misunderstood, so i called Glen. He tells me that he did not have to sign anything.

Does anyone know how many Orchid growers now have flasks of Phrag. kovachii to be released in 07? I know of the following:
Orchids Limited-Jerry Fischer
Orchid Zone-Terry Root
Piping Rock Orchids-Glen Decker
"a Florida Grower"
Orchid View-HP Norton
From the standpoint of chromosome counts, I wonder if all of these flasks are from plants from the same area?? Hopefully, Jerry or Glen Decker will know the answer to this question.
At least one of this group of growers has already treated protocorms to obtain tetraploids so tetraploid breeding with Phrag. kovachii shouldn't be too far down the road. It will be interesting to see if P. kovachii will get any larger when tetraploid.
So far, I have root tips for chromosomes coming from only one grower. I'm sure that eventually we will have chromosome counts from a good representation of what is now available.
The only grower that I have talked to about growth rates is HP Norton and he say that Phrag. kovachii is a relatively slow grower. To a Phalaenopsis hybridizer that doesn't mean much as we are used to 3 to 4 years to bloom out a cross.
I'm sure that it is obvious to all that with at least 5 USA growers with multiple flasks that will be available in 07 that we will all be able to enjoy this plant in the very near future.

One more comment: Of the list of growers above, all are first rate to do business with and I would not hesitate to order from any of them. You Paph and Phrag fans are very luck to have that many top notch growers to supply your habit. With Phals we are not that lucky. Due to pressures from afar there are now very few good Phalaenopsis growers. We should do everything we can to support good growers and negative comments about them should not be tolerated by anyone on this forum.

Dean Stock

I agree with you Dean. We have many top growers in the US for Paphs and Phrags. We are fortunate. We are at an exciting point in time for Phrag hybidization. I am personally looking forward to see the results of these hybrids.

Dean I wil check with Glen and see if he can supply you with some more root tips, if you are interested. Let me know.

One more comment: Of the list of growers above, all are first rate to do business with and I would not hesitate to order from any of them. You Paph and Phrag fans are very luck to have that many top notch growers to supply your habit. With Phals we are not that lucky. Due to pressures from afar there are now very few good Phalaenopsis growers. We should do everything we can to support good growers and negative comments about them should not be tolerated by anyone on this forum.

Dean Stock

Hear! Hear!
I completely agree!

Also, from the article (I cannot recall if it was in the AOS magazine or Orchid Digest) by Jerry (I think), I'm pretty sure Chuck Acker has flasks as well (and went w/ Jerry to Peru?) Please correct me if I'm wrong - I did not dig aroun to find the article to check facts, sorry.

One more comment: Of the list of growers above, all are first rate to do business with and I would not hesitate to order from any of them. You Paph and Phrag fans are very luck to have that many top notch growers to supply your habit. With Phals we are not that lucky. Due to pressures from afar there are now very few good Phalaenopsis growers. We should do everything we can to support good growers and negative comments about them should not be tolerated by anyone on this forum.

Dean Stock

Hear! Hear!
I completely agree!

Also, from the article (I cannot recall if it was in the AOS magazine or Orchid Digest) by Jerry (I think), I'm pretty sure Chuck Acker has flasks as well (and went w/ Jerry to Peru?) Please correct me if I'm wrong - I did not dig aroun to find the article to check facts, sorry.

I second that! I have stayed out of this discussion so far simply because I feel that I am nowhere near qualified to comment on the condition of current pk plants and flasks, and the culture to grow them. There are so many variables here, I don't see how anyone can make assumptions about growing pk until we have years of experience to base them on. I am totally ignorant, as are most orchid hobbyists because we have never seen pk, much less tried to grow one. I refuse to believe that anyone on the distinguished list of growers above is trying to deceive us simply because I read a couple of comments on a public forum or I heard from a friend who heard from a friend. I prefer to believe what I know first hand which is basically nothing about pk, but I do know that the growers listed above are high quality, experienced vendors. If anyone can bring pk safely into the US market, they can.

One more comment:...We should do everything we can to support good growers and negative comments about them should not be tolerated by anyone on this forum.

Dean Stock

Hear! Hear!
I completely agree!

me too, as long as i can still talk trash about the forum members.... :drunk:

No one on this forum has trashed any of the above growers, directly or indirectly. If you think otherwise, you had better go back and re-read my posts. By the way, my contact is not "a friend of a friend" but has been directly involved from the beginning.

You can trash me if you want, but remember that the postings were about kovachii's origins from PeruFlora, not about anyone who may have purchased from them. I am certain Jerry and all the rest purchased in good faith, and hope they have success in bringing true kovachiis to the rest of us.

Yup, Chuck's got 'em! If I had any interest at all in this species I'd be baking him weekly chocolate chip cookies at this point. 8)

(In all honesty, with them so easily available it's hard not to get caught up in the fever)

And, as always not to trash anyone, but I put close to zero weight on statements that don't have a name attached to them.

well my initial question was actually more about sales terms and conditions and wondering wether that was common in US as it is not in Europe, but I see that the discussion has gone in a very different direction ! :? I feel like I am even more confused about all this PK thing than I was in the beginning..... :cry:

No one on this forum has trashed any of the above growers, directly or indirectly. If you think otherwise, you had better go back and re-read my posts. By the way, my contact is not "a friend of a friend" but has been directly involved from the beginning.

You can trash me if you want, but remember that the postings were about kovachii's origins from PeruFlora, not about anyone who may have purchased from them. I am certain Jerry and all the rest purchased in good faith, and hope they have success in bringing true kovachiis to the rest of us.

My comments were not directed at you, and I don't believe I indicated that they were directed at any one specific person. Sorry you took offense. I have been reading SEVERAL comments on SEVERAL forums about pk. I don't mind reading info, facts, gossip, rumors about pk...in fact I find it very interesting.

I've been buying orchids in the US for quite some time and have never ran into the types of "terms and conditions" that you may have read on the Orchids Ltd site for the kovachii offering. Of course, we have never been presented with such a newsy offering in modern times; at least none that I'm aware of.

You can peruse any number of online grower sites out there and read their "terms and conditions". Typically, the terms have to do with payment and shipping plants in bud or flower, insurance, shipping during hot and cold weather, export, etc.; standard stuff.

Here are links to "terms" for a couple of our larger US growers:
Carter & Holmes site http://www.carterandholmes.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+
and Fuchs http://www.rforchids.com/cgi-local/vestibule.html

Your Grand Reserve Plant awaits you!

Garland

As a counterpoint to Garland, neither Carter & Holmes nor RF Orchids are offering Phrag. kovachi, nor are they offering futures...

I think a wise business person should seek to protect their investment. If I could, as a buyer, impose terms and conditions on a seller, you bet I would! :-dance:
Let's see. Seller warrants that the plant will bloom within 6 months, never die, grow super fast ... did I miss anything?

I have never seen "Futures" being sold with orchids but I agree that if you are going to, there would have to be terms. It is understandable to want to sell futures. I am sure Jerry has put out a large expense and wishes to cover some of this expense prior to the availability of the plants.

I think it was a smart business decision to handle presales this way. You have funds in your pocket in advance of the sale to cover expenses. You also have people commited to buy from you and if something happens to the product you can't get your money back but only can use it for other products. As a healthcare professional, I can't do that but would love to have patients pay for future care with a non-refundable cash deposit that can only be used for my services. In would help my cash flow greatly!

Ron,
thanks very much for offering to check with Glen Decker about Phrag. root tips. As soon as I get caught up a little I may take you up on the offer. It may be a little difficult to arrange as the pretreatment and fixation must be done before the material can be transported and I'm not at all sure if Glen would be willing to take on additional "things to do".
Thanks,
Dean

My contact asked me to post this:
___________
I am not a dedicated slipper orchid grower, I did not register on this forum. However, I have asked Phragfan if she will post the following for me. It should provide some answers contributors to the forum are seeking.

My original notes concerning Pk to Phragfan, a friend, were not intended for publication on this forum. There was no attempt on my part to be an anonymous contributor, though SOF appears to have many contributors whose identity is hidden behind a "nomme de plume."

I indicated, in my first "Pk notes" to my friend, that what I stated could be told. I did not know in advance that Pragfan would publish it on the SOF.

Never afraid to speak my mind, you will know who I am, when you get to the end of this post.

I will not repeat all I have said already via Phragfan's two posts, except that I have had a long association with personalities and institutes involved in the Phragmipedium kovachii story, both in Peru and the USA. The news you get from me is what I receive from my sources in Peru, who are often personally involved and closer to the scene than any of us.

Jerry signed a document "not to sell Pk seedlings from his Manolo Pk flasks for two years" and thus sales of his Pk seedlings was delayed until 2007.

The business contract Jerry signed with Manolo Arias, in the opinion of many, had only one purpose, namely to perpetuate the PK FLASKS SALES MONOPOLY of Manuel Arias Silva, Manolo's father. I agree fully.

Several friends in orchids, who purchased Manolo's flasks, living in Holland, Brazil, Germany, France, have all told me that they were also asked by Manolo to sign the contract, because he told them INRENA required it.

Today, the Arias Pk flask sales monopoly no longer exists.

Alfredo Manrique, my Peruvian friend, owner of the first nursery selected by INRENA to legally collect 5 Pk plants from the habitat and propagate them in-vitro, has been granted his first export permit. Alfredo does not ask anyone who purchases his Pk flasks to sign a silly business contract.

Glen Decker, received his Pk hybrid flasks, and Pk flasks propagated in Alfredo's laboratory. INRENA provided the export permit and Glen imported the flasks into the USA.

Now you know why Glen can sell his seedlings whenever he pleases, which may be this year. I know which Pk hybrids Glen did make, but I will not tell you, for that is his business and for him to tell.

What I can tell you for a fact, knowing the integrity and honesty of Alfredo, is that his flasks contain the real Pk, and seedlings are of excellent quality. I know, for I and several well known slipper orchid lab owners in the USA provided Alfredo with valuable tips, some of the finer points of lady's slippers in-vitro propagation, which Alfredo passed on to his lab technicians.

INRENA has been informed why their use of CITES for Pk flasks is erroneous. I have high hopes that soon they will discontinue that as well, saving the purchaser many US$$. Instead of CITES, a separate form could be drafted in which INRENA guarantees that the Pk flasks were propagated from legally collected seeds in registered Peruvian nursery 001, etc. I doubt very much that any import country will ask for it, but it could accompany the flasks, just in case.

I noticed many questions as to Pk flower size on this forum, but no real answers. Here are the actual dimensions of one Pk flower in a Alfredo's nursery: Horizontal spread 8 inches, Vertical spread 4 inches and pouch 2x2 inches.As easy to remember as a common piece of lumber, the 2x4x8, except the 8 is inches; not feet. Not all Pk flowers may reach this size.

I wish all of you well! Good luck with your future Pk seedlings. May they survive, may they be Pk, may they never stop growing, and may you enjoy their flowers immensely for many years to come.

peter croezen

I signed one of those purchase agreement forms from Peruflora in anticipation of purchasing 7 large flasks of PK (50 to 60 seedlings in each flask). Shortly before the time that my flasks were to be shipped, Peruflora replated everything, including my 7 large flasks into smaller, baby food jar sized flasks. My 7 large flasks turned into 30 smaller ones. When I was informed of this having already been done, I was sent a photo of a random group of flasks. The seedlings were all uniform in size, indicating that they had probably been graded and they were very, very small.

When it was finally time to ship my order, I asked to see a photo of the flasks that would be sent to me. I eventually received a stock photo of a representative flask with a note saying that they all looked the same. Again, the seedlings were very, very small and had no roots yet. I couldn't see how such flasks could travel all the way from Peru to Canada without becoming terribly jumbled. Plus, I had serious doubts that the majority of such small seedlings would survive. Instead of ending up with ~450 healthy, growing PK seedlings, the possibility of me ending up with just a small handfull of survivors seemed more likely. At over Cdn $8000.00 for the lot, plus shipping, taxes, etc. on top of that, (borrowed money), I wanted to be reasonably assured of having something to show for my increased debt. The extremely tiny size of the seedlings being offered cast a very big doubt on that.

Also, I was told that I had to sign a document promissing not to sell any of the PK seedlings until April of 2007. I did sign the document in preparation of completing my order. However, I have just re-read the document very carefully and realized that it is not a Peruvian Government document; but, is simply printed on Perufloras' letterhead. Even so, a signed agreement with another company is still valid and enforcible of course, as long as it was created in good faith. However, the clearly expressed purpose of this document, as stated on it ("By signing here I agree not to sell, trade or donate these seedlings in the next two years. This way, INRENA and CITES will keep track of the existing legal seedlings worldwide."), was so that the Peruvian Authorities could track and monitor the movement of the seedlings for a period of time. If the real reason for this document was actually to create a monopoly for Peruflora, then doesn't that void the legality of this document?

I was under the impression that I was entering into an agreement with the Peruvian Government agency - INRENA. If INRENA has nothing to do with this document and they have no intension of "tracking" the seedlings that were otherwise legally sold and exported, then it is a bogus document that carries no legal weight at all. If I'm correct here, then Jerry should be free to sell his seedlings whenever he chooses; especially in light of the fact that Glen Decker has not had any such restriction placed upon him by INRENA. Of course, Glen apparently dealt with a different nursery. It does seem odd that INRENA would be so restrictive with one nursery and not at all with another.

I am bitterly dissapointed that I could not have my flasks of PK! What I wanted was to buy flasks of robust, well rooted PK seedlings and be able to begin selling them whenever I chose to do so. Whenever I have purchased flasks from any other nursery, anywhere in the world, I've received flasks with big, strong, well rooted seedlings, ready to be deflasked and with NO (bad faith), restricitons attached! Reluctantly however, I agreed to this 'temporary ban on resale' restriction, supposedly placed on me by INRENA. Because I had borrowed the money to afford this purchase, the ban was going to create a financial hardship for me; but, the temptation of this species was too great for me to resist. Now, it seems that I was not told the truth about the origin and true legal purpose of this document. Then, even though I had repeatedly stated and reminded Peruflora that my order was based upon the assumption that the PK seedlings were of a good size with good roots, I am only offered rootless protocorms that have a few leaves.

The following is a quote from one of my very early communications to Peruflora way back in July. My flasks weren't supposed to be shipped until a number of months after that. "If the seedlings did get jumbled in transit, I could just deflask and pot them when they arrive. Even if the seedlings are not large yet, I assume that they are large enough to actually have good root systems and leaves, not just big protocorms with a leaf or two."

The prospect of acquiring these flasks of PK was really, really exciting for me and I spent all summer looking forward to receiving my flasks in the fall. Unfortunately, it seems that I was not dealt with in good faith and my excitement has been crushed and turned into immense disappointment. Thank God I hadn't actually sent any money before I realized what was happening.

My entire experience has left me extremely disillusioned and I think it reflects badly on Peru. I'm sure this is not what the Peruvian Governement had in mind. It's bad enough that kovachii missed out on being officially named "peruvianum"; but now, it seems that instead of this species being a popular ambassador to the world, symbolizing all that is good about Peru, it represents the notion of "getting shafted"!

well put John. I wondered if you had received them or not. Just as well you did not get them. This spring there will be legal flasks here in Can.

Hi,

Sorry, please scroll past.

This is just a test to see if I have found a way to post on this forum

Hi Peter, Welcome to the SOF! :D

Yes, welcome, Peter!
:welcome:
I like being direct best, also.
Dot

Welcome Peter!

Thank you for the warm welcome.

When the need arises, I will try to give you the Pk facts, as I have alreay done for the past several years on another forum, and in my presentation of The Pk Saga, a digitally projected slide show and talk I have given all over the USA and Canada.

Hi Peter. :welcome: Glad to see you here. :D