Dear all
I have some reflections on how hybrids around natural hybrids are made. Some of these was discussed around another topic earlier.
http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2414&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
I have seen that there are crosses with different types of Cypripedium macranthos for examples rebunense, hotei- atsumorianum and speciosum as one parent and as other parent calceolus and the var flav. This would make Cyp x Venticusum
Still there is Tanja Pinkepank as rebunense X calceolus by Pinkepank
Still there is Carolin as calceolus X speciosum by Frosch
Then there is Tanja Pinkepank X ventricusum as Oma Alli by Pinkepank
Is this not to stretch things a little much? Is not all of these Ventricusum? I think there is a point to say what kind of macranthos is used may also have different names when making other than the natural cross. The natural variation in Vent is huge so I would belive that plants that look like all of the above would be found narurally. They might not be exactly the same genetics since there might not be any calceolus in Japan where the named variants of macranthos exists but there is a huge variability of macranthos in sibiria where calceolus also exists to give the hybrid.

Then there have been back crossing which also is repotred from Sibiria by Frosch et al in die Orchidee.
calceolus var flav X Ventricosum as Wladiwo by Frosch (Does the name refer to the city in Russia where similar exists?)
and Ventricosum X macranthos as Karel Polivka by Pinkepank.

I have in ground orchids home page seen unnamed hybrids between hotei- atsumorianum X rebunense is that nut just macranthos rather than a "new hybrid" as they say.
http://www.ground-orchids.de/index.htm
Just because a macranthos is in a variation of the spectrum so that it is called something else does not really justify to redo what nature already have done.

I had prior sugestion regarding Tom lovely white plants macranthos and ventricusom that it would be a point to cross them. The answer then was that that would just be a back cross and not leed forwards. Why are people doing this back crosses and redoing natural crosses and naming them?

Maybe this is not really an interesting subject but I think it is and would really like to hear others opinions about this.

Kind regards

Joakim Balogh

Dear Joakim,

I can only agree with you on this, although I can't comment on naming plants that have been back crossed onto one of the parent species. That would get a little complex! Not to add to the confusion, but here is an other newly registered hybrid that is a cross of C. macranthos 'hoteiatsumorianum' x C. parviflorum v. pubescens. It has been given a new name, but in reality this cross was made years ago with a "normal" C. macranthos to create the hybrid C. Aki.

http://www.w-frosch.onlinehome.de/carol_i.htm

So, are there any rules? Sure it just depends on how you look at things.

There has always been a gap between what botanists and horticulturalists consider distinct. For instance, in Japan there exists a wide range of C. macranthos varieties that are considered distinct by growers: C. speciosum, C. hoteiatsumorianum, C. rebunese, C. alba and so on. Of these, C. rebunese seems the most distinct, yet similar plants can be seen growing on the mainland of Asia as well, and these are simply considered a part of C. macranthos (indeed most botanists feel that C. rebunese is just a variety of C. macranthos including Phillip Cribb). These plants are kept distinct in culture and are treated as separate plants even though scientists do not recognize those distinctions beyond obvious outward morphology.

The rule seems to be, if you have a horticulturally distinct plant, you can create a new hybrid with it and register it with a new name. :confused:

Tom

Sorry, in my list of C. macranthos varieties I meant to say C. macranthos v. alba or more appropriately C. macranthos v. albiflorum, NOT C. alba!

Dear Tom and all others
The Hotei is the Japanese macranthos that looks most like the type macranthos so that would be the least likely variant or form that would give any destinction from the already known Aki. Since Aki is almost 10 years it can not be a surprice that someone just beat You at the finishing line and You got a registration as a consolation prize anyway. Aki already have variations like light pastel etcetera so it is already used several macranthos in the breeding.
Maybe if there is difference in the result so that it can not be inside the variation of "Aki" it would be ok to accept new variations. Sometimes there is a difference between the result depending who is the father and who is the mother and a combination of that and different variant of macrahtos might be enought to say that there is a destinct difference so that their hybrid would be different from already known hydrids.

Malmgren has a variant of Gisela called Johnny Pedersen where they used rebunese.
Johnny Petersen
http://www.w-frosch.onlinehome.de/jonny.htm
This is a "red form" of Johnny

Here is both forms and Gisela
http://www.lidaforsgarden.com/Orchids/cypripedium_eng_hybrid.htm

Gisela
http://www.w-frosch.onlinehome.de/gisel.htm

This looks diffrent from the Gisela I have seen and also variants of gisela like Gisela "Pastel". Then it might be ok to talk about a different hybrid. Then they talk about that 10-20 % gets some red colouration then it might be harder to see the differense from Gisela. I have some how got the impression that they (Malmgren) changed father mother and that Jonny Pedesen is much more like the parviflorum in caloration. Maybe the red even comes from the parviflorum since it is not as much as on a Gisela? But with this very red forms it is not as the "kissed variants" of parviflorum seen else where, and it might come from the macranthos.

In some vendors I have the feeling it is deliberately boderline on fraud since they talk about the mancuricum var alba (White ventricosum) and then they cross that with x ventricosum. And then it still varies a lot so it is not a homogen hybrid they have. They do not have any name on it either but it not a hybrid more than ventricosum.
http://www.gartenorchideen-shop.de/index.html?cypripedium_bluehfaehig.htm
They also present a backcross ventricosum with calceolus.

When using specified variants that results in specific hybrids that is destinctly different from similar hybrids, including the "normal spread" of the hybrid and not only from the type picture then it is a new hybrid to me.
Then one can improve it by using extra good parents and such, but it is not a new hybrid unless it is different from earlier.
I do not know if anyone else than Frosch is Using there name after the plant as a destinction? That would be a point especially if there is deliberate inbreeding to minimize or outbreeding to maximize the variation of a hybrid.
Maybe it would be boring to know exactly what you get when ordering a plant?! Maybe it would be more fun and easier to plan what to by.

Maybe I am going a bit of track npw but is there attempts to breed lines inside a hybrid to get a even nicer Gisela or a Gisela that is almost exactly the same, all the time? Or is there a need for meristem propagation for that to be possible?

Maybe time should be spent with more exotic Cyps like the Mexican ones with carlifornicum. To get a bigflowered multiflower that might be possible to grow in normal soil. This would offcourse be a much bigger chalange but getting pollen to Mexico or pollen from Mexico is possible I suppose? That I what I call making a difference in breeding/hybridization of Cyps!

Rather than doing variations of ventricosum that already exists in nater and in other variations of the man made variations of xVentricosum.

Kind regards
Joakim

There do seem to be problems with the naming of hybrids in Cypripedium lately. If one creates an exceptionally nice plant of a previously named hybrid, then it should have the hybrid name that was given originally, with a new name added after that. It should also be sent to one of the judging centers for evaluation prior to doing the new name so that a record is made of the plant that was so exceptional. In the US, this would be done at one of the American Orchid Society judging centers, for example. We are beginning to create a haphazard mess within the Cypripedium area.

Ron Burch