I brought this plant to a meeting today I knew there was going to be two judges there speaking today. although they were impressed with it's size and color they didn't think It would have been given anything because the dorsal wasn't flat enough. What confuses me though is that;s the way most paphs grow naturally not with flat dorsals so why shouldn't they be judged for what they are.

Did you mean to place a link to a photo? It didn't come in on my computer.

I think judges look for the "ideal" form, not the "real" one. Sometimes it happens, but most of the time not, and that's why not every good-looking plant gets an award. (I'm not a judge.)

Dot

So Paph Ron Hawley = rothschildianum X Telesis

and paph Telesis equals Vallarrow X Progress (ad infinitum)

It's a multi floral primary crossed with a complex standard - the judges would have been a bit schizoid on this one :)

Judged as a complex, I suspect the judges would have been looking for exactly what you quoted they were.

More importantly to me at this time is; Is the flower attractive?

Cheers
Stephan
(not a judge ----- yet :) )

Hi Stephen, It is at that they liked the color the health of the plant they remarked at how strong the plant looked for it's vigor everything but the Dorsal One was surprised at it's parentage and commented it went back over 15 generations. I'll take anotheer picture of it later there is one in the Photo section of when it just opened.there is another bud developing but I doubt it will be as large as the one open now. I heard one comment that it had another bud but the plant is capable of producing three bus to a spike. Thanks for looking. Ray

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y278/fredbuster/th_9768f218.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y278/fredbuster/9768f218.jpg)
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y278/fredbuster/th_433ae605.jpg (http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y278/fredbuster/433ae605.jpg)
The picture with one flower is in bloom now the other picture is from an earlier blooming The flower now is much larger.and there is two more mature growths that should produce.you can click on the lower picture to enlarge the top picture isn't mine it is the picture I was shown when I purchased the plant. Ray

Thanks for posting the photo. Nice flower. Not bad, if it's the first time blooming. Hopefully subsequent blooms will have a "flatter" dorsal sepal, and the judges will like it better.

I like the colors on it alot.

It's a beauty! Personally I don't like flat dorsals! They look good on photos but none can beat the 3 D effect of the dorsal curling back like say spicer - funnel like and all that!
Mang

I brought this plant to a meeting today I knew there was going to be two judges there speaking today. although they were impressed with it's size and color they didn't think It would have been given anything because the dorsal wasn't flat enough. What confuses me though is that;s the way most paphs grow naturally not with flat dorsals so why shouldn't they be judged for what they are.

I would like to hear from one of our judges on this question. While I kind of have an idea of how this question may be addressed, I do not have the expertise to be comfortable speaking for the AOS judging process.

I will say that just because a flower may not be eligible for an AOS flower quality award, that does not mean that it is not a beautiful flower. Your Paph Ron Hawley is a very striking flower. From the look of the dorsal, there's a chance that it could come out less twisted on subsequent blooms. Good growing, Fred! :clap:

Thanks Paphreek, I almost wished I had brought it to last weeks show in Mass. I didn't feel comfortable with others in charge of that plant because of it's size and transporting it. I didn't know if I could have been there. Our show Is Nov. 19 if I still have a new bloom on it I will bring it there . There are supposed to be twelve judges showing up for this show. Thanks Ray

Ray, I'm definitely no judge, but I like that dorsal. The colors are great! Sweet plant you have there! :D

This is a very attactive flower, but probably not awardable. Most standard paphs have achieved a level of excellence (in the best plants) of not necessarily flat dorsals but definitely not reflexed at the base (like spicerianum). Many complex paphs will have somewhat cupped dorsals, but the most preferred plants will tend towards flatness and full form (no windows between the dorsal sepal and the petals).

Throw in a species like rothchildianum onto this and the picture changes. Roth will open the form, extend the petals and narrow them a bit, and increase the flower count. Some of the complex paphs are polyploid so that can counteract the effect of the roth. Many rothschildianums can have some reflex to the dorsal, but once again the best ones do not.

Hence we are back to the beginning, again. The best forms of both parents are flat, on the same plane, large and well colored. While this plant is well colored and attractive, it is not quite up to the awardable level. That being said, it is well worth growing. Many interesting and attactive plants don't have awards, so don't let that bother you.

This is a very attactive flower, but probably not awardable. Most standard paphs have achieved a level of excellence (in the best plants) of not necessarily flat dorsals but definitely not reflexed at the base (like spicerianum). Many complex paphs will have somewhat cupped dorsals, but the most preferred plants will tend towards flatness and full form (no windows between the dorsal sepal and the petals).

Throw in a species like rothchildianum onto this and the picture changes. Roth will open the form, extend the petals and narrow them a bit, and increase the flower count. Some of the complex paphs are polyploid so that can counteract the effect of the roth. Many rothschildianums can have some reflex to the dorsal, but once again the best ones do not.

Hence we are back to the beginning, again. The best forms of both parents are flat, on the same plane, large and well colored. While this plant is well colored and attractive, it is not quite up to the awardable level. That being said, it is well worth growing. Many interesting and attactive plants don't have awards, so don't let that bother you.

Thanks for the info. Would you be kind enough to elaborate on how novelty crosses are judged?
Regards Mang

Thanks for the explanation Bill I believe when they looked it up on wildcat it had scored 79pts.Makes sense the way you desribe the plants. Ray

Regarding judging "novelty" paph crosses...........

When judging any plant research should be performed to see if the grex has been previously awarded. If it has then we would have a reference point. If not then the parents would be researched for color, size and breeding habit.

Some parents have a very strong influence in the progeny and others are more subtle. For example, paph sukhakulii has a very strong influence with a relatively small dorsal sepal and nicely held wide petals that are heavily spotted. This shows up in virtually all sukhakulii hybrids.

A healthy knowledge of the parents is very important, especially when working with the species. Most orchid judges should have a good idea of what constitutes an awardable species in paphiopedilum. Judges have good source material and should be up to speed on the major genera. They also have seen many, many plants and understand what is average and what is excellent.

At this point the hybrid would be discussed by the judges to determine the positive and negative traits of the plant. Some judges will be more expert in certain genera and their opinions normally carry more weight in their area of expertise, but most judges should have a good idea of what they are looking at.

There will be some variation in the punative hybrid, for example look at the old Lindenia plates of Paph Leeanum. The plants will show varying degrees of influence from both parents. The best are well colored, shaped well and large for the cross.
Many times the grex will show "hybrid vigor" which will produce plants that are superior in growth habit and vigor from either species, and as a result can produce flowers that are larger and more prolific. Sometimes the cross is a weak grower due to the genetic incompatibility of the 2 species and progeny is not strong at all.
It's sort of a roll of the dice with some of the novelty hybrids.

A judge has to determine what is a good result of the cross, and how that compares with what he is viewing. Often the cross, while an interesting novelty, is not an improvement from the species involved. Usually you would want a result that is at least equal if not better than either parent. The entire process is based on experience and knowledge, then sprinkled with subtle conjecture.

Regarding judging "novelty" paph crosses...........

When judging any plant research should be performed to see if the grex has been previously awarded. If it has then we would have a reference point. If not then the parents would be researched for color, size and breeding habit.

Some parents have a very strong influence in the progeny and others are more subtle. For example, paph sukhakulii has a very strong influence with a relatively small dorsal sepal and nicely held wide petals that are heavily spotted. This shows up in virtually all sukhakulii hybrids.

A healthy knowledge of the parents is very important, especially when working with the species. Most orchid judges should have a good idea of what constitutes an awardable species in paphiopedilum. Judges have good source material and should be up to speed on the major genera. They also have seen many, many plants and understand what is average and what is excellent.

At this point the hybrid would be discussed by the judges to determine the positive and negative traits of the plant. Some judges will be more expert in certain genera and their opinions normally carry more weight in their area of expertise, but most judges should have a good idea of what they are looking at.

There will be some variation in the punative hybrid, for example look at the old Lindenia plates of Paph Leeanum. The plants will show varying degrees of influence from both parents. The best are well colored, shaped well and large for the cross.
Many times the grex will show "hybrid vigor" which will produce plants that are superior in growth habit and vigor from either species, and as a result can produce flowers that are larger and more prolific. Sometimes the cross is a weak grower due to the genetic incompatibility of the 2 species and progeny is not strong at all.
It's sort of a roll of the dice with some of the novelty hybrids.

A judge has to determine what is a good result of the cross, and how that compares with what he is viewing. Often the cross, while an interesting novelty, is not an improvement from the species involved. Usually you would want a result that is at least equal if not better than either parent. The entire process is based on experience and knowledge, then sprinkled with subtle conjecture.

Bill thanks again. There's a lack of good books/literature & knowledgeable guys here in India. Your willingness to repond is highly appreciated.
Regards Mang