The title says it all. I read Stephens taxonomy page and it said it isn't a climber, but Mahon said it was. I'm confused. I hope it isn't a climber, I would like to use it for breeding. (once I find one)

Does anyone know if it passes on traits like besseae?

Kyle

Dear Kyle,
normally Pahrag. dalessandroi isn't a climber. The growths develope near together. This you7 can find also in the hybrids of this species.

Best greetings

Olaf

And here a group of plants some years ago in Jersey at the Eric Young Foundation, but labeled as besseae, before the description was made.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/og48/243dalessandroigroupinJerseyasbesse.jpg

Really an extraordinary group of this species

Best greetings

Olaf

OLaf,

Which are the differences between this one and the original bessae besides from the branching?

tchuss

Uri

wow! That is a fantastic picture! I'm glad to hear it isn't a climber

Dear Uri,
my first impression when I saw Phrag dalessandroi was that it is a besseae with branched inflorescence. When we analyzed we found differences in the growth, all new growths are near together without stolones between, but also the shape and the colour of the flowers are different.

If this is enough for a new species is a personal decision some other came to the decision that it is better classified as a variety of Phrag. besseae.

Best greetings from Bavaria

Olaf

In my experience Phrag dalessandroi grows with closer rhizomes than bessae which tends to range a bit between growths. Also it stays in the pot better than bessae which grows like it's still on a cliff somewhere!
The flowers are a bit smaller with narrower segments and petals that droop a bit. The color seems to stay in the light red orange range- once again not quite as vibrant or variable as bessae.
The best feature of delassandoi is the spike habit which tends to branch and present a spectacular show of flowers compared to bessae.
Unfortunately both of these closely related species have been cross bred as bessae when in fact they are a closly related hybrid.
For registration purposes both forms and their hybrid are bessae even though their progeny produce different flowers.
Taxonomists and the RHS registrar seem to enjoy confusing the waters for the average orchid grower!

Olaf,

Hey, maybe the stolonous plants of Phrag. d'allesandroi are really natural hybrids between the Phrag. besseae and Phrag. d'allesandroi? I have seen lately quite a few Phrag. d'allesandroi that are stolonous, but the flowers differ from the picture, and look more like gloomy Phrag. besseae, that are a little lighter colored... I have even talked with a few of the people who visited populations of Phrag. d'allesandroi and Phrag. besseae, that they are all stolonous... can u send me via e-mail or post the distribution of both species if you have it? Perhaps plants I am seeing are crosses of the 2 closely related species... has anyone else seen any Phrag. d'allesandroi?

-P.A. Mahon

Taxonomists and the RHS registrar seem to enjoy confusing the waters for the average orchid grower!

How true!

Dear Mahon,
the hybrid between Phrag. besseae and Phrag. dalessandroi , Phrag. Jersey, has normally no stolones. I have seen only the result of two crosses and around 50 plants, all were similar in growth like dalessandroi. The colour and shape of the flower is similar to besseae how you can see in the pictures of.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/og48/besseaexdalessandroiFrontklein.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/og48/besseaexdalessandroiSeiteklein.jpg

When you make a cross with this Phrag. Jersey you will get also hybrids without stolones. This I could see in some hybrids made in a german nursery.

I have nothing heard about overlapping of the habitats of besseae and dalessandroi.

Best greetings

Olaf

I think some the confusion ocurred because dalessandroi was at one time considered a variety of besseae. I have seen them growing side by side at Piping Rock and the growth pattern is different, as stated above. Also the flower shape is different. Colors are very similar. There is a big varience in besseae coloration from bright red through orange and yellow and all the combos inbetween.

I am wondering, then, what all I am seeing? I keep seeing these Phrag. d'allesandroi, with trailing rhizomes... they are many flowering, but unlike the nice pic of the Phrag. d'allesandroi you posted, the ones I have seen are more succesive, one or two open at one time... I am still curious, perhaps the ones I am seeing are only of Phrag. besseae parentage, crossed with a multibloomer, and kept being crossed back to besseae... I have no idea... wild guess... I am wrong then about Phrag. d'allesandroi being a climber... I have also heard others say it was a climber... still no idea...

ttyl,
-P.A. Mahon

...just looked at the close-up of the Phrag. d'allesandroi flower, very nice, and has those dropped petals... looked at the inflorescence of the Phrag. d'allesandroi, and I see the bracts are very large and outwards, I did not see this in the plants I saw...and they did not branch... I must try and find who the person was with the plants I saw in person...

-P.A. Mahon

If I am recalling it correctly, there is a chromosome count difference between Phrag. d'allesandroi and Phrag. besseae. No one seems to be concerned about chromosome counts in Phags just as they were not with Paphs until they hit the breeding barriers. I do not remember who counted the Phag. besseae and its relative, I'll try to look it up.
Dean Stock