Just out of curiosity, how many of you have matured sized Paph sanderianum in your collection? Has is it bloomed for you? I have one but it is a small seedling and years from blooming. :roll:

Hi
I'm also curious. I just got a small seedling, and would like to know some of the cultural tips any of you pros have. Also, anyone know either of the parents 'twister' x 'dark spider'?

Kyle

Hi
I'm also curious. I just got a small seedling, and would like to know some of the cultural tips any of you pros have. Also, anyone know either of the parents 'twister' x 'dark spider'?

Kyle

Mine is sanderianum 'In Charm' x 'Shin Yi' and I have had it since 2002. It now has a LS of 9+" and growing beautifully. It grows very slowly but picks up speed during summertime.

Mine is only about 8" and I got it last year. It is 'Wanaukee Warrior' x 'Jungle Monarch'. I may get a couple other crosses as well, but not sure yet.

I also just have seedlings I got in 2002. One has a leaf span of about 8", the other is about 1/2 that. There are some awarded adults that a friend of mine in TN has, but he doesn't talk about them much. I realy liked the culture sheet that Orchids limited has on them. Mine realy turned around when I started humidity monitoring and control. They realy seem to appreciate high humidity (at least 70%) and breezy conditions. I have them near the center ilse of my greenhouse where they are in the direct breeze of the fan.

I would like to get some of the newer sibs as I've just got the "old fashioned" Jacob's Ladder x Deep Pockets. It's bloomed once before, but doesn't grow nearly as quickly as my primary hybrids with it. I've always liked the shiny floppy look of the plant...and it does grow much quicker in higher humidity. A cross I got a flask of from Orchid Inn a couple years ago that I am quite excited about is (Sander's Pride x Prince Edward of York)...but it's going to be a few years til these start blooming.
Jon

I also just have seedlings I got in 2002. One has a leaf span of about 8", the other is about 1/2 that. There are some awarded adults that a friend of mine in TN has, but he doesn't talk about them much. I realy liked the culture sheet that Orchids limited has on them. Mine realy turned around when I started humidity monitoring and control. They realy seem to appreciate high humidity (at least 70%) and breezy conditions. I have them near the center ilse of my greenhouse where they are in the direct breeze of the fan.

Rick, does your friend have huge guard dogs protecting his adult awarded sands? :lol: If I had adult awarded sands in my collection, I wouldn't talk about them much either.LOL!

Kyle, your cross is being used in breeding - the other one I have coming has your's as a parent.

Was it Jon who just said he liked the growth habit? Me too! I love the sort of flat wavey foliage. I also like the little yellow rim. It really looks different from all my other plants. I'm looking forward to getting a couple more to compare to one another.

Actually he does own some big rotties. But I think he is also a naturally shy and retireing kinda guy, despite the fact he shows his plants.

I got mine from Baker and Chantry about 8 years ago. I traded an arm and a leg for it.

In 8 years I have bloomed it 3 times. It is a tough one for me to get the cultural requirements correct but then I also have a hard time with stonei. It seems to take longer than a year for the new growth to mature and bloom. I have it next to my Cattleya and it get heavy feedings of a Cal-Mag fertilizer with the rest of the Paphs.

If a 4" LS is blooming size then...Yep!! :roll:

Kyle, your cross is being used in breeding - the other one I have coming has your's as a parent.


Thats good news. Do you know if either parent is awarded? Are there any pictures on the internet?

Kyle

In 8 years I have bloomed it 3 times.

Any pics? Would love to see it.

Kyle - I'm not sure, haven't searched around online for pics, nor for awards, sorry!

When it blooms again you bet I will have pics!

I lost ALL the pics stored on the computer about 8 months ago along with all my other info and only have the ones on my website left. My camera broke about that time as well but will have to drag a friend over to take pics.

It almost scares me to post pics as then it will prove I have one and well.. you know. I do have to say my German Shepherd loves fresh meat!

I have a few adult and nbs sanderianum. dark spider and twister are from Sam Tsui. I do have a picture of twister i think.

I would like to get some of the newer sibs as I've just got the "old fashioned" Jacob's Ladder x Deep Pockets. It's bloomed once before, but doesn't grow nearly as quickly as my primary hybrids with it. I've always liked the shiny floppy look of the plant...and it does grow much quicker in higher humidity. A cross I got a flask of from Orchid Inn a couple years ago that I am quite excited about is (Sander's Pride x Prince Edward of York)...but it's going to be a few years til these start blooming.
Jon

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Sanderianum Jacob's Ladder x Deep Pockets is really Prince Edward of York. A cross made by Orchid Zone many years ago, and somehow mixed up. They got holy heck for it, and lost a lot of money. PEY isn't bad, but it isn't sanderianum.

I don't think any of those are actually sanderianum. But if you have a picture, we could probably confirm or deny that rumor. 8)

Good morning all,

Thanks to an email from Heather letting me know about this forum! I am all about Paphs these days and good to find this place. I look forward to sharing the addiction with you all!

On sanderianum,

'Dark Spider' and 'Twister' are Orchid Inn plants as someone already mentioned. Dark Spider has good dark color and Twister has very long petals- a nice pairing there.

As for the culture question- I have been growing these from flasks (I did something called Sanderianum Chronicles on some other forums a couple of years ago on my first flask) and I have found the number one thing is to not let the plants get too dry.

Growing indoors, I tend to let all plants dry a bit between waterings, but I have learned to not let the sanderianums get too dry at all. If they are moist, they are happy.

But of course- too moist is not good either. So my solution is to have a fair amount of drainage in there. For plants in 3" round pots, I add 3 unbroken plastic peanuts. For compots in 4" round azelea pots, I add 5-6 unbroken plastic peanuts. This effectively makes 50% of the pot a drainage layer and that allows me to water every other day without things getting too soggy at the bottom of the potting mix.

The other sanderianum issues with culture seem to center around heat and high humidity. I have not had too much trouble on the heat issue. They do slow down a bit in winter when my apartment is in the upper 60s, but the heat of the grow lights helps there. And in summer they are fine. I tried the $100 heating mat and it just didn't really do anything for me.

As for humidity, Houston and Austin natural humidity seems to be fine (I just moved to Austin in November) indoors and I have not really gotten too worked up over that. And after a disaster with the plants I have in 3 inch pots now (last fall's flasks of sanderianum), I no longer put the compots in baggies fresh out of flask. This last time, it promoted some serious infection and I lost half the plants in a week.

But that aside, the plants getting too dry is where just about every other fatality has occurred.

As for which parents are best and improvement in growth in breeding- I have most definitely seen it. Each year the plants are growing faster and better. Maybe I am getting better at this, but there is more to it than that.

Just about all of the Orchid Inn sibling crosses of sanderianum in the past 3 years have come my way, and I will say that anything with 'Henry' as a parent has been especially vigorous and easy to manage. Sam notes Henry as a parent that is hoped to impart better growth and I have certainly seen it in the early months.

I just potted out four compots of sanderianum, all with 'Henry' as a parent, into 3 inch pots. These plants were in flask 6 months ago! That is record time for me by a long shot. Compot usually takes a year with these and in earlier times I would do two runs of compot a year each- one out of flask and one with thinned out smaller compots.

So I think, as with rothschildianum in recent years, we are finally reaching a point where sanderianum in captivity is going to be a lot easier and with far less wait time!

Time will tell, but I think we are about at that magic point where prices have come down and selective breeding has improved the plant to where it is a really good time to get interested in sanderianum.

Even 2-3 years ago, I was not yet convinced sanderianum was ready for the investment and time involved- but now I feel different as I see how quickly and trouble free these seedlings are growing (and at less than half the price of just a few years ago!)

I have a house in austin, and am down there all the time. The bluebonnets should be coming out right now, and Mt. laurel in full bloom.

I would like to get some of the newer sibs as I've just got the "old fashioned" Jacob's Ladder x Deep Pockets. It's bloomed once before, but doesn't grow nearly as quickly as my primary hybrids with it. I've always liked the shiny floppy look of the plant...and it does grow much quicker in higher humidity. A cross I got a flask of from Orchid Inn a couple years ago that I am quite excited about is (Sander's Pride x Prince Edward of York)...but it's going to be a few years til these start blooming.
Jon

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Sanderianum Jacob's Ladder x Deep Pockets is really Prince Edward of York. A cross made by Orchid Zone many years ago, and somehow mixed up. They got holy heck for it, and lost a lot of money. PEY isn't bad, but it isn't sanderianum.

I don't think any of those are actually sanderianum. But if you have a picture, we could probably confirm or deny that rumor. 8)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y7/jonbar1/sanderianum1.jpg

This is the only pic I have of it stored on my computer...I will have to dig up the disc the others are stored on. I had no reason to doubt it being sanderianum, as the petals were much longer and twistier than my PEOY, and this pic was taken during my setup in a show where it got a blue ribbon with no question from the judges of its identity. I want to say I got it from Orchids Limited in a big order...but it could have easily been from another vendor since I didn't keep track of sources back then.(pre-vietnamense/kovachii as I now say).
Maybe its parentage is mislabeled, I got lucky, or this is a very sanderianum dominant PEOY.
Jon

To my, this looks like sanderianum. The pouch, the dorsal, and the way the petals curl down immediately, and don't extend out first, like PEOY does. The latter is much more "expansive" for lack of a better term. But, that's just me and I am very new and don't know much. :)

Steve,

I just walked in the door from a quick weekend trip to Houston to visit family, and yes the blue bonnets are coming out in force now. They look really great this year too- very full.

Jon your photo looks like sanderianum to me. I have not seen every PEOY in the world, but I have seen quite a few and never have I seen one that almost totally favored sanderianum. I have however seen some that looked a lot like roth only.

For that matter, I do not think I have ever seen a roth cross where any significant number of the plants came out not looking at least a bit like roth- this is a very dominant parent in my experience.

Orchids Limited has a very fine reputation, and I was deeply troubled at first when I saw that they were selling NBS and BS sanderianum 'Jacob's Ladder' x 'Deep Pockets' for so long after the bad news was out.

Perhaps Orchid Zone did actually make the cross and there are legits of this sibling cross around?

That would certainly make more sense. While any sanderianum bearing this sibling name is automatically suspect, I just could not believe Orchids Limited was selling PEOY as sanderianum. So hopefully your photo goes a ways to putting that fear to rest.

It is well known that OZ was selling PEOY as sanderianum. However, this was an accident apparently, a mislabeled pod. And they found out only after the fact, from what I understand. There are, of course, good sanderianum batches from OZ, and a few PEOY batches. Not only were the plants mislabeled, but I believe when they were discovered to be PEOY, OZ didn't do anything about it. This is what caused the OZ to loose reputation. Of course, I don't know any of this as fact, so just take it as rumor.

Hi Steve,

The story you have is much what I have been told- save the last part which I will get to next- but I was just wondering out loud if maybe there were in fact some legitimate plants of this sibling around.

In other words, I never knew if there was an actual seed pod of this sibling cross in addition to the accidentally mislabelled one.

My understanding is that Orchid Zone did in fact make good on these and went to great lengths to see the mislabelled and potentially mislabelled plants were dealt with. Whether they actually took them back, or issued partial refunds etc. I do not know. But it appears in many cases the vendors kept the plants and got credits for other purchases or some other recompense.

I have spoken with many vendors who were extremely upset about other vendors who apparently settled up with OZ and then proceeded to sell the PEOY as sanderianum anyway. Thankfully since word got out so fast, this did not last very long. But the real scam here seems to have been retail vendors taking advantage of the situation.

To address your last point about OZ losing reputation- I only bring it up because I think it is really more coincidence than anything else that OZ changed its business structure around that time.

For those who might not have been growing long enough to remember, there was a time when the Orchid Zone sold directly to hobby growers. In high school I actually almost bought some of these sanderianums from them directly- $100 each or 6 for $500 for plants with 4-6 inch leaf spans. Looking back I am glad I decided against it. It would have sucked up a lot of summer job many anyway- and quite possibly for the wrong plants!

I personally think OZ just caught on to the new market trend a bit sooner than most. Their plants were so popular, and their volume so high, it just made more sense to do wholesale only.

Many vendors will still prominently let customers know they have OZ crosses for sale- but some do not. Hence, it seems like OZ has kind of fallen from the scene.

In fact, I think they are more dominant than ever. Well over 50% of the Maudiae crosses I see for sale are most definitely of OZ origin- you can tell by the pots/mix and often by the cross names.

That said, I have not seen much in the way of multiflorals coming out of there. Then again, as a more pot-plant company these days they surely do not get nearly the benefit there they do from Maudiae crosses.

Your information is far different that what I had heard, but you are closer to the source.

Hi Steve,

Well- don't think me too close to the source lol. I really just have the input from a handful of vendors- all recalled in my mind and posted here years after the scandal broke.

I could well be wrong in my understanding of the situation. I just wanted to point out that the apparent "disappearance" of OZ from the retail scene was not necessarily tied to the PEOY/sanderianum deal.

You know how it is- especially in the Paph world the last 10 years. There are so many people out there trying to make a primary or secondary living on these plants- many of them not even good growers, just go-betweens who buy plants and sell them right on- and naturally competition is a big thing.

Some growers are good, some are not. Some are honest, some are not. But in all of us there is a keen sense of competition- even in people like me who do not need the proceeds from my orchid sales to get by.

So I take all of what I hear with a grain of salt.

My opinion in this matter is really based on the large number of reliable people who have given similar accounts. But that still does not make it first hand knowledge on my part.

Jon, your sanderianum also looks very much like Shin Yi's Prince. Hopefully, I'm wrong and that it is the real deal!