Hello Everybody,

I am new to the Slipper orchid forum and I have a question. I just deflasked 3 flasks of phrag besseae and it is my first time. They are in 4" comunity pots done in the AnTec fashion of keeping the whole mass of agar and roots intact and potting around it. Two of them are in a fine firbark seedling mix, 1 is in long fiber NZ sphagnum moss. Does anyone have any advice on how often to water, when to start diluted fertilizing, and post deflasking care? Now they are in a propagation tray with a small vent (about 85% humidity) and about 72 -78 degrees F.: 10 hours on 14 hours off under 200 Fc of flourescent lighting. Appreciative for any advice people have. :clap:

Hi!

I know nothing about flasks, so hopefully you get answers from the more experienced flask/compot growers! :welcome: to the forum!

Just a comment about the "agar on" method. The first time I tried this method, the agar dried and formed a barrier that the roots could not penetrate. I lost 75% of the plants. I tried another time and had more success when I poked holes in the agar with a sharp stick and watered a little more heavily. The compots showed good immediate growth, but when I took apart the compot last month, the roots, while good, were still below average in size and quantity when compared to other compots. With Phrags generally liking wetter roots than Paphs, the method should be more successful for you. Good luck!

Keep phrags moist. I start fertilizing immediately. I don't know if that is the best, but it works for me. Also, watch carefully for signs of bacterial infection (most often wet looking spots on the leaves). If you see this, try to remove affected leaves immediately and treat the whole compot with the lowest effective strength of Phyton 27. You can use another bactricide, but I have no experience with the others. Phyton 27 was been safe on all my Paph and Phrag seedlings so far.

Well all right - now I can say G'day

G'day :)

Cliche's aside I have no expertise to offer - just simple observation. I've been privvy to the growing areas of two phrag growers so far. Both grow in an enclosed "glass" house with electric fans for air circulation. For the seedling to first potting stage they were using compots in a plastic tray sitting in another plastic tray with damp sphagnum moss in it. This lot was sitting on sand in a warming table. The tray with the sphagnum moss had a few small drainage holes in it to allow excess to drain away. There were roots growing in to the sphagnum moss from the compots.

The guys were both fertilising from day dot but I didn't get any advice on strength etc - I was in awe at the time :)

BTW I'm in S E Queensland, Australia

Welcome to the forum :welcome:

Cheers
Stephan

Also, watch carefully for signs of bacterial infection (most often wet looking spots on the leaves)...

Ross - can you elaborate on this? besseae specific or in general? What exactly do you mean by "wet looking spots"

My besseae was "oozing" a week or so ago - seemed to have to do w/ my watering schedule. But now I'm wondering if maybe I should do a physan run on it.

I haven't watered it since last Wednesday (skipped it on purpose on Monday,) and it is looking better, btw. But, is due tomorrow.

*Welcome to the forum, OF!!!*

The infection I'm refering to is not an oozing. The leaf will have a spot that looks wet and translucent, similar to a spot of grease on paper. That's not quite perfect an anology either. The 'wetness' is not on the outside of the leaf, but rather inside. I wish I could show you a picture, but I'm glad I don't have an example to photograph.

I also neglected to mention that water quality is very important with all seedlings, especially Phrags. What type of water are you using on your compots? Well water, rain water, R/O water?

Thank you all for your advice. I am using R/O water and plan to start fertilizing in 1 week at 1/4 strength with a Ph of about 6.0. After day one they seem to be doing fine aside from a few minor incidents of leaf tip droop. Any further suggestions will be welcome. :Party:

On the deflasking, i have seen leaves get bruised or start to rot, and look translucent. Sometimes you can save by using a fungicide. Having deflasked all of 4 different phrag flasks, I would say phrags are some of the easier plants to transfer. With that limited experience, I repot into sphag, sometimes with perlite, water daily with a fungicide & weak fertilizer. I can't say I have lost any plants from the four flasks, most plants seem to be growing well (as in out of house and home). Unlike, say catts or laelias, which seem to be much more problematic for me.

Just out of curiousity, where did you get the Besseae flask? I am thinking of buying one from a vendor but it won't be available until next year... I only have one red phrag, and am itching to get more :-)

jerry

Okay, maybe oozing wasn't the best word - but that's the problem I had. Thanks for the info!!

Thanks for your perspective. I did get a bit of bruising on some leaves but most of them seem pretty good. I have been spraying lightly with a 25% solution of physan 20 and R/O water after removing bruised leaf tips with a sterile scissors. As for the origin of the flasks, I placed an add in the Orchidmall classifieds and Chuck Acker wrote me back. He offered flasks of the red besseae cross ('Rocket Town' 4N x 'Cow Hollow II' FCC/AOS), & of the Flavum form 'Gold Titan' x 'Imperial.' I Know he is now offering Phragmipedium besseae Paute x besseae ‘A-One’ ready in October.

How long until these newly deflasked seedlings can join the rest of my brood?

As for the origin of the flasks, I placed an add in the Orchidmall classifieds and Chuck Acker wrote me back. He offered flasks of the red besseae cross ('Rocket Town' 4N x 'Cow Hollow II' FCC/AOS), & of the Flavum form 'Gold Titan' x 'Imperial.' I Know he is now offering Phragmipedium besseae Paute x besseae ‘A-One’ ready in October.

Yeah, that is the cross I am lusting after. I thought it was an '06, but will double check with him. The 'Rocket Town' x 'Cow Hollow' should be incredible. I have seen crosses made with each, and lusted after each one. I am very jealous If you have any compots you want to sell... :wink:

jerry

Yeah when I heard about the cross I was very excited. Right now they are in no condition to ship but I will keep you posted. :-dance:

Just a comment about the "agar on" method. The first time I tried this method, the agar dried and formed a barrier that the roots could not penetrate. I lost 75% of the plants. I tried another time and had more success when I poked holes in the agar with a sharp stick and watered a little more heavily. The compots showed good immediate growth, but when I took apart the compot last month, the roots, while good, were still below average in size and quantity when compared to other compots. With Phrags generally liking wetter roots than Paphs, the method should be more successful for you. Good luck!

Just to elaborate on this, I think a lot has to do with the specific agar blend being used.

When I got heavy into growing out Paph flasks, I started off with all Antec crosses. I was skeptical about the agar-on method, but quickly become quite fond of it when I saw how much time it saved in compotting. Additionally, there is far less manual contact with the plants when they are in a very fragile state and easily crushed or snapped when handled.

And what Antec claimed came to pass. The agar did eventually wash away in a few weeks and all was well.

However, with other flask sources I have had far different results since those breeders do not use the agar-on compotting method themselves and, presumably, have not designed their agar to be adaptable to that practice. I do not know if Antec has specifically adapted their agar for this method of compotting, but it seems reasonable they did and in real life I have found theirs is the only agar that can do this without any problems.

In using the agar-on method with flasks from sources other than Antec, I too have lost many roots, and a few plants, trying to separate plants after 4 months in compot when the agar is still intact with a sturdiness that approaches plastic! This creates even further worries. Even if the plants are separated, I am fairly confident remaining chunks of agar pretty well smother the root surfaces they cover. The agar comes off with plenty of warm water, but still roots break.

For a long time I continued to advocate the practice, however, since the losses and inconvenience at this later stage were still less of an evil than the time-consuming and perilous handling of baby Paphs fresh out of flasks and putting them individually into compots. Since I use a bark mix, this process is all the more troublesome.

But recently I have devised a couple of middle of the road solutions that are working well. Here they are in the hopes they are helpful,

1. Pot the plants with agar-on, but wash away at least 60% of it. Leave just enough to hold clumps of plants together for fast and easy compotting. The best way I have found is to set the clump of plants with agar in a bowl with just enough warm water to cover the top of the agar. Then gently hold the clump with your fingers and twist or turn it side to side with some vigor. This will free large chunks of agar without any roots growing through them and by holding the whole clump together loosely you can still keep the plants in some sort of clump that is easily set down in a pot.

In my case, I usually also try to gently pull the clump into two sections so I can make 2 compots. Over time I have found that 4 inch compots are best with only 10-15 plants given how quickly the little guys grow. Having that extra space helps prevent rot and the etiolation (sp?) that come with overcrowding.

2. Sometimes the root systems are too thick, or the plants too small, for #1 above to be effective at removing the agar while still leaving you with easily managed clumps of plants. So in this case I just use the agar on method and dump the whole thing into a pot for a couple of weeks.

Then after a couple of weeks when the plant leaves and crowns have toughened and the plants are adjusted to outside life, I can unpot them and wash away the agar (at this point it has yet to harden) and proceed with the method of #1 above.

On a final note, I must also confess that while I have had great luck growing Paphs with the agar-on method, I too have found in recent months that the plants seem to grow even faster without it. I was able to take flasks of Paul Parks and (Macabre x adductum) out of their compots and into single pots just weeks after I took the plants from flask. The growth rates have been phenomenal. More time and more flasks with this treatment are needed before I make any firm conclusions, but so far it looks like no-agar is working better for me.

So at this point, my hybrid versions of agar-on are purely for the sake of saving time and avoiding handling these plants fresh out of flask when they are most vulnerable.

Very informative. Thank you!!

Yes, thank you to all for your sharing of knowledge and experience. I am going to try to attach some photos of the compots 1 week out of flask.

Yes, thank you to all for your sharing of knowledge and experience. I am going to try to attach some photos of the compots 1 week out of flask.

I for one, and I'm sure others, would love to see them!

here are photos from two weeks out of flask...more to come

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c27/orchidfever123/IMG_5233.jpg

Nice looking seedlings and photo. Use the Img tags instead of the URL and your photo should show up in the message box. Thanks for posting!

here are photos from two weeks out of flask...more to come

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c27/orchidfever123/IMG_5233.jpg *

Very nice, and happy looking plants...

Btw, I did get a flask of the besseae Paute x besseae ‘A-One’ cross from him, and will be potting out tomorrow... Great looking plants right out of the flask...

Jerry

wow, very impressive. Such healthy looking plants.

Cheers
tim

They look GREAT!
I edited your tags....

They look great. I haven't raised any besseae seedlings, but I've done pearcei, and lindlyanum. No losses at all.

I would reinforce Stephans earlier comment that air flow is important. I use small low voltage computor fans in smaller boxes to promote air flow.