What about anitum? Is it legally available here in the US?

Neither in US, nore in Europe... it's an officially prohibited plant ...
But our plants are hidden for a while :lol:

I'd like to translate laws I know, but i've a language trouble...

That is really tricky. Technically, anitum is illegal.

However, adductum is legal. Additionally, tons of people imported anitums before they were recognized as a different species, and before CITES was even started up. These were of course imported as adductums. Now that the ban is on, and only recently science got around to it, so? I mean, tons of people here in the US breed with it. Even really big names from NY and California have been breeding with anitum as it was adductum, ever since back in the day.

So, it should be legal, but nobody has come forward with a preban plant and said they are legal.

That is really tricky. Technically, anitum is illegal.

However, adductum is legal. Additionally, tons of people imported anitums before they were recognized as a different species, and before CITES was even started up. These were of course imported as adductums. Now that the ban is on, and only recently science got around to it, so? I mean, tons of people here in the US breed with it. Even really big names from NY and California have been breeding with anitum as it was adductum, ever since back in the day.

So, it should be legal, but nobody has come forward with a preban plant and said they are legal.

I know a FL vendor has anitum hybrids and was tempted to get one.

That is how CITES works ! :D Those grey areas are always there and eventually all illegal plants will become legal then. Flasks trade don't required a CITES permit, right ??! :lol: Years from now there will be tones of flask seedlings available in the market !

I just can't believe they can ask somebody to propagate those confiscated vietnamense and let them offer the plants for sell in US. If they are being so strict in every single detail in import, how come confiscated plants should not be kept in the confiscated centre until there is a final decision ! I think US CITES agency is acting just like they are the Chief of CITES organisation and do whatever they like. Of course banning everything they dislike at the same time.

This is the real world !

Avery,

I can only smile. Here in the US, the Fish and Wildlife Service is the acting Scientific Authority, and may interpret, enforce, and disregard CITES rules to their liking, as they have the official and final say regarding US CITES rulings.

And I am aware of the Florida breeder who imported them. A little pricey, but you can also get them in flask still from Water Orchids.

Steve, you are right ! They have the final say of CITES regulation in US, unfortunately ... I am still thinking this is a kind of trade protection ...
:mad:

No breeder in US can survive if those newly discovered species aren't in the US province while those hybrids and species are becoming the main trend of breeding. They have to make things "right" in order to keep close to the front of the world. However .. I have to say ... the best flowers have to be selected from tons of specimens instead of just a few plants confiscated .. they still have to let plants in no matter from flasks or some other ways or else, offsprings from those few plants will still be inferior ... :roll:

It will be a bit clear when you take a look at those Germany origin vietnamense blooming this year .. Hope I can post some photos here while mine blooms ... :D

http://transparencymauritius.intnet.mu/cover.gif

:D :D :D

:D :D :D

So, avery do you have anitum in your collection? :lol:

Hehe .. Of course .... Yes ! :D :D :D

Hehe .. Of course .... Yes ! :D :D :D

Oh really??? :shock: Wow! How big? Flowered for you yet? I'm jealous! :jealous:

My understanding of the vietnamense situation was that it wasn't just a couple plants, but well over a hundred. When they were confiscated, they were to be returned to Vietnam immediately...but Vietnam refused having them sent back. So there they sat in "purgatory" and so some were sent to a few commercial nurseries who specialize in species plants and others stayed there and were sibbed and selfed for flasks.
I know someone who purchased a couple vietnamense, hangianum, jackii, huonglanae(emersonii), helenae, anitum, and hermannii...and probably others from one of these selected nurseries. We are not sure of the legality of his plants however since none of them came with papers. I am happy to say they are all growing well and many have bloomed, although none of them have been divided, propagated, hybridized, or shown in shows due to fear of the laws. I don't have photos of them or any other incriminating evidence of them...and sure as heck don't need the ATF busting into local greenhouses with M-16s at three in the morning. I sure hope kovachii and all the others are available legally soon so we can stop worrying about having illegal plants...even if they are already third generation hybrids by then.
Jon

"Oh really??? Shocked Wow! How big? Flowered for you yet? I'm jealous! Jealous"

I recently acquired an anitum and I can tell you it is not like any multi-floral paph I have ever seen. Ive seen adductum and the flowers may look similar but the plant itself is certainly different from an adductum. For one thing the leaves are more massive. The leaves are overall bigger. Adductums leaves are similar to a philippinense but the anitums I have has leaves bigger in length and surprisingly in width.

The leaves are also very stiff and insetad of ending in points are rounded. Although not considered tesselated, In my specimen I can actually see the veining underneath the leaves, a very dark green color.

Overall a very remarkable and weird plant. Im actually still fawning my new found baby :D

Being that you are in the Philippines, it is certainly jungle collected from North Mindanao. Just keep your humidity high, and give it medium light, and slightly greater fertilization than philippinense, and it will be great. Show us some pictures when you can.

Thanks for your comments Steve. I did not know anitums have been elevated to species status??

Actually I have never seen an anitum, and I have been searching for it for well over 10 years now surprising since its supposed to be endemic here.

So are there vendors that will sell a perspective buyer a plant now . and how does one find avendor like this. Thanks Ray

You could find them outside the US, because they are illegal here.

And anitum is considered a species by the US CITES authority, until Phil Cribb says otherwise.

Dear Jeff 1101,
Paphiopedilum anitum was described originally by Andres GOLAMCO
in Waling Waling Review: 9 – 14; Aug-Dec.1998 as a distinct species. In the same article he used also as a possibility the name Paphiopedilum adductum subsp. anitum hort.
2000 Harold Koopowitz changed the level in Paphiopedilum adductum var. anitum (GOLAMCO)KOOP. in Orchid Digest 64(4): 157; 2000

It is really a very interesting and beautiful species/subsp./var.: Some breeders in Asia and Europe tried to start the artficial propagation and it looks well. Only the germination of the seed is not so good, so it will need a long time that these plants came in a greater number in trade.

The local name is lantaw-lantaw and around this plant Golamco told a very nice story about the black orchid.

The decision ift it is a species or a variety of Paph. adductum is really a personal decision. My tendence goes more to a species because the differences in the leaves, the inflorescence, the flower and also the colour are really remarkable.

I must seek for some pictures of for showing the differences.

Best greetings

Olaf

If paphgirl lets me upload the pictures, I have image copies of the journal.

BTW, PAPH ANITUM WILL SOON BE LEGAL IN THE US! AND NO, THEY WON'T BE FROM ANTEC!

If paphgirl lets me upload the pictures...

Huh? Why wouldn't I? Of course, go for it!

I have already seen mature BS anitum hybrids for sale here in the US.

Also here some piuctures of Paph. anitum.
One picture I get around 9 years ago from the habitat. The other are pictures from plants in culture.
Really wonderful plants and flowers.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/og48/anitum.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/og48/anitumBlteOlafGruss.jpg

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/og48/anitumBlteThomasFourman.jpg


Best greetings

Olaf

Please excuse that the last pictures are too big

Olaf

If paphgirl lets me upload the pictures, I have image copies of the journal.

BTW, PAPH ANITUM WILL SOON BE LEGAL IN THE US! AND NO, THEY WON'T BE FROM ANTEC!

Steve,

Where did you hear that it will soon be legal in the US? Did you hear when?

Thanks

Pretty cool news and photos!

Paph. anitum is one COOL looking species! Thanks Olaf!

Cool flowers. A bit too dark for my taste, but it's cool that the petals criss-cross. Any other ones do that?

This species has been on my most wanted Paph list for quite sometime! I would love to get one when they are legally available.

Perhaps they will be legal in a little less than a year. It should be a release like vietnamense was.

Thank you , Olaf for showing us a photo.

I was not aware of this species. However, I have not been aware of SO many species that you have shown us recently. This has been an excellent education for me.

I do wonder about the practicality of CITES. I DO understand protecting rare species of any plant in its native habitat and the importance of not disturbing or removing such a plant. I would assume that that would mean protecting the entire area that the plant is located in, as there must be other rare plants living there. We are talking about protecting an environment or a habitat!!! Perhaps even an ecosystem.

I DO have a problem understanding why rare plants cannot be rescued prior to clearing out a virgin rainforest before the rainforest is cut and burned to the ground, and the rare plants with it. (Not to mention the displaced animals) In this respect CITES does not make any sense to me. It is not logical. I would hate to think that there is nothing we can do, as most of us on this forum do not live in these areas of the planet. However, there must be a way to get the governments of these countries involved, so that these rare plants (including our beautiful orchids) could be saved and sent to nurseries for future breeding and preservation. Why not allow plants that other countries give implicit consent to burn down and kill, to come into the USA? What is the big deal?? It is NOT like most of these plants, including orchids, will be"invasive" within the USA. Most would not survive here without special care.

Sorry, I don't get it. It does not make sense. Just my thoughts as a newbee philosopher.

Thanks for listening.

Susan,
good thoughts....I agree.

From what I understand there are some people who are able to have these plants saved and in breeding programs, however illegal that might be.

There are some people out there with the knowledge, expertise, and dedication to go out and scour areas of forest before they are cleared out. I believe Michael Ooi in Malaysia has done stuff like that in the past. However, at the rate of deforestation, it is a monumental task for the few experts who are qualified to go out and do that kind of time-consuming work.
As we all know, orchids can grow at all levels of a tree, not just on the ground. So you would then have to have someone literally examine an entire tree before it is felled.
I think it is simply a matter of too much ground to cover, and few experts with the time to do it. Since orchids aren't always in bloom, you would need eyes trained in recognizing orchid foliage, and being able to distinguish that from other plant-life.

I know many people disagree with CITES. CITES is not perfect, it is clearly overly protective and an overabundance of caution. However, if we view CITES as a measure to deter the casual, wealthy, hobbyist-collector from removing the last few specimens in the wild, it could be viewed as a success. As collectors, we may get frustrated that this slows down how quickly a newly discovered species gets distributed to the collecting public. But if it can deter one bumbling novice (myself for example) from going out there and collecting the last specimen of some relatively rare species, then CITES has done it's job. The bumbling novices who collect plants and then kill them on the way home from transplant shock could probably put more plants on the extinct-in-the-wild list than anything else in nature. We have to allow experts to propogate the species in a controlled manner. It may not be fast enough for us, but it's better than being left with just a picture.
A person who is willing to go out and illegally harvest plants to put them into breeding programs is doing something that is ultimately in our best interests as collectors, however those people usually do not conduct comprehensive studies or surveys of how many plants are left in an area. They may inadvertently remove the last plant of a species that way. If they propogate it successfully, well hooray for everyone. But what if they don't? They go out and try to harvest some more and deplete the wild population even more.

Sorry to ramble on...

Marcus,
You make some very valid points. CITES is problematic for sure. I guess part of me wishes the powers that be would consider separating themselves off from the endagered animals and venturing a new document.

Unfortunately, you are right, the surveying teams are not in place to allow for correct listings of habitats and how prolific the plants are so something like (I don't know, I'm pulling this out of the air) anitum could be very very prolific in its' native habitat, and yet is regarded as endangered and worth protecting to a fault.

Marcus,

Keep rambling. It's good.

I just think that (1) countries should not cut down & burn their rainforests; and (2) if they are dumb enough to do so, they should get in there and rescue any endangered species they have: and (3) if not, private collectors should be allowed to come in only if they agree to preserve & propagate rescued plants of which they would be obligated to donate 50% (name a percentage) back to preserving the ecology of that country.

I ramble too. I'm a Libra. That's what we do. Libras take forever to make up our minds; if we ever do, and we appreciate input of other opinions.

keep it coming!!!

CITES is by no means is a success. I can clearly demonstrate this with a simple economics graph. Imposing restriction on trade necessarily increases wild-collection of plants. And the wealthy collector who wants a few specimens isn't a big deal, especially with dozens of colonies of hundreds to thousands of plants. There are enough to go around. The problem is that CITES doesn't protect the plants or their habitat. Anybody in that country can go in the forest, take all the plants, and burn the habitat down, and get a medal of honor from RBG Kew. This is the exact case in the species druryi. CITES only means you can't move the plant out of the country, unless you have the right political connections, you are a very special exception, or you move them illegally.

If some admin decides to allow uploading of images, I can upload the graph.

BTW, if hosting pictures is so expensive you can't allow it, I suggest getting rid of the forum. If it is a policy, it is counterproductive.

STEVE -
What is up you and the photos?
Just use photobucket - it is simple and it isn't something we need to spend many hours fixing. If you have a better suggestion, let's hear it! :)
I don't understand what the problem is. We are not allowing the hosting service to deal with photo uploading. End of story. You must use another service, as everyone else who is a member here does, and seems to have little problem with. Maybe this is a slight inconvenience in your day but the rest of us are handling it just fine, it seems. If the situation changes, we'll adjust it.

I would have sent this via PM but despite my contining to ask about what the problem is, you continue to persue this publicly, so, touche! I'm sorry, but it isn't a matter of fixing a problem, or you being special, it is just the way it is. Everyone is having the same experience as you. For better or worse - people are working with it with few complaints.
So, please post your photos, we'd all enjoy seeing them, it is easy and not difficult! Just do it!

I think this was taken care of.

OK...
Susan steps in with much hesitation.

Photobucket works really well for me. And Steve, you posted some really exquisite photos of Paphiopedilum stonei var. platytaenium on this forum:

ttp://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1323

IMHO, it (Photobucket) works. I'm just starting to use it, as the image hosting service that I pay for is giving me a hard time. That is because I set my orchid photos on higher resolution to post on this forum and this takes up more pixels; but you must know this.

Hey, You Texans who sleep in your pickup trucks and find naturally mind-altering orchids, shrooms, and whatnot, can figure this out. Yes???:poke:

Steve, Please post!!

Peace

SteveT,
I for one would love to see more pics of what goes on in your mad scientist lab and the results. :poke:

Thank you, Heather! I don't know how I missed this continuing post but your words came out beautifully! :lol: Uploading photos to this server is no different than uploading to a whole different server. Personally, I think it is best that members pick their own servers, that way they have full control of their own photos. I have been doing the SAME very thing for years on other forums before I had even started with SOF and that is what I prefer.

SteveT,
I for one would love to see more pics of what goes on in your mad scientist lab and the results. :poke:

Maybe someday I'll issue golden tickets!

Maybe someday I'll issue golden tickets!

There's oompa loompas?? :clap: :clap: :-dance: :-dance: :Party: :Party:

Maybe someday I'll issue golden tickets!

Oh yes, and you could genetically engineer the plants to have them printed on the inside of buds of opening paphs!
hahaha.....

Oh yes, and you could genetically engineer the plants to have them printed on the inside of buds of opening paphs!
hahaha.....

He would have to engineer a blast-proof bud first :D Hey now there' s an idea... :idea:

Reading dustyatticstuff's comment about (1) A country should not burn down their forest, there is an actual reason for doing so. The burning and cutting of the rainforest is like a rejuvination project. First, I am sure you have been in a rain forest, but the air is so stagnant, you can hardly breath and get oxygen. I have rambled in The Commonwealth of Dominica on the Carib Trail, and can hardly think straight. There are also possibilities of gasses, emisions from either volcanoes or natural gases located below the earth, coming upwards, such as Sulfer Gas in Dominica.

By opening up the rainforest, air circulation increases, and light too increases. By the burning, the plants burn and are "used" by other plants to survive, a natural fertilizer. I find that burning and cutting down PARTS if the rainforests is a very good idea. In Africa, they have really over done it, especially in Madagascar or the Cosmoros.....

If a person would visit a site of burning and cutting of the rainforest, a person will note that there are TONS of plant life on the floor, as opposed to the Begonias, Ferns, Palms, and few orchids and Bromeliads seen on the forest floor in low quantity. In Columbia, there has been alot of burning and cutting, and I have seen pictures of the sites, and they are doing better than they have ever sone before. By burning, this stimulates plants in resisting fire, and growing stronger and more vigorously. Plants are not "programed", weak little organisms, they are very "smart", and know how to handle things. Yes, they are programed, but they are like a computer..... I am sure the seeds produced by some of the trees in the rainforest, when burned, became stronger, due to avoiding the burn. THose seeds, when still on the tree, may have been "programed" to grow stronger.....

As for the animals, this poses a little more harm. The animals may get burned or get cut up by the loggers. But for really "harming" them for the most part, no, I would say not. Areas of the rainforest that are destroyed, are just that, destroyed. Animals won't just sit in the forest, they move on, and find the same bushes, sames trees, same fruits elsewhere. Frogs, as I have been told, usually bury themselves in the dirt (is this true, frog guys?), or go to water and stay there. They are not stupid..... Yes, there will be some dead animals, but you know, it happens..... the organisms that may die besides plants might be a poor virus or bacteria.....

I must disagree on this with you, that people burning and cutting the rainforest down a bit it a "stupid" idea. You must remember that the rainforest is the last stage before a desert (which of course has been proven). If you keep starting over, you will not encounter the last stage, like in a game, you keep starting the entire game over, you will never finish..... people who protect the forest as a person have absolutely no idea as to what they are really doing, they think they do. It is a common mistake made, and people are really wanting to save the forests.

Now as to your second part (2), yes, I do believe that collectors should go into the forests that are to be cleared, and collect all the plants they can get. There may be no places to put them, so plants may become donated to certain people, and to institutions. Too many plants in a forest. Being biased, I find that orchids should at the least be picked out, but there are also bromeliad ethusiasts that say only the bromeliads should be picked out..... and there are already expeditions and projects in "rescuing" plants from the forests. If you really want to help save every weed and plant there is in there, I can reffer you to a very good trip planner, to Belize and Guatemala. Guatemala is full of Drug Bandits, and the government there is as stable as a wobbling top, no offense to anyone from there or currently living there. It is dangerous for anyone to go into the forest there or into the city.....

As for your (3), there is alot of ecology being brought back into the rainforests even soon after the forest parts are destroyed. I personally do this, not in the rainforests, but in preserved land here in Florida. I reintroduce some of the rarest species of Florida native orchids back into the wild. At burn sites, I will introduce Pteroglossaspis ecristata or Calopogon barbatus, in wet areas, I will throw (literally) some Habenaria repens into the grass, and sandy areas, I will introduce species of Spiranthes that are rare (I do not bother with praecox, vernalis, lacinata, common stuff like that).....

Burning of the forest will also cause species never seen before to be found. I am sure there are some seeds in there that need a burning to crack the cotyledonic shell, or as a stimulant for seed fertility, just like in Calopogon..... You must also remember that seeds are VERY durable, even those of orchids. Seeds off of 1800's herbarium material is salvaged sometimes, and plants do grow. Propagators are now looking for extinct species on herbarium sheets to see if there is seed or not, as it sometimes will germinate, even though an orchid seed has no cotyledon. If this sounds like I am crazy or incorrect, then also look at the ancient, extinct species of Date Palm tree from Egypt that someone is germinating. Also, during World War II was going on, a museum was bombed (in England, I think), which had many ancient seeds on display. From that bombing and killer fire, came up seedlings of those ancient plants in the rubble and ash. This is very rarely mentioned, and is very interesting.....

Anyways, the most danger caused by cutting of forests and burning is the trre hugger group. They stick long nails in the trees, so when the loggers come, the saw blades break off, killing the operator of the machine. He is not trying to destroy the place, it is not a one-man operation, he is an EMPLOYEE of a company that does logging. I am sure there ARE more deaths in people logging than endangered animals killed during the process. If there are some new species of trees, bushes, plants in the destroyed places, I guess they will not be found. It happens, it really does.

As for CITES, as said I think by Steve, CITES has no interest in the protection of the forests. CITES is there to hinder you, and take what plants they want from you, and keep some plants extinct and some rare..... CITES has limited the collction of plants from rescuing from a destroyed forest, as importation is a limiting factor. CITES has caused more plants to go extinct than anything. CITES works on the original purpose, limiting trade of animals, not plants. Plants are a different situation..... CITES is used for the creators and affiliates as a "free ticket" into each and every person's greenhouse in almost every country in the world, and they get free stuff for visiting..... please read in Eric Hansen's 'Orchid Fever'.....

ttyl,
-PM

I have two issues with how some countries manage their deep forest eco-systems. Prudent clear cutting and burning is certainly not one of them. It's an established method that does do more benefit than harm as long as the old growth stands are maintained as much as reasonable. It's like pruning back roses but making sure some good, healthy cane is left.

I don't see or hear that the countries in question are doing it prudently though with the proper intentions which is one of my issues. How many micro-environmental habitats and unknown species of plant, animal and even insect have been wiped out already? Nobody really knows is my bet because the areas weren't sufficiently studied by the scientific community beforehand. Even when scientists get to study the areas I would say it's rare to see or hear of a 'team' that has a full spectrum of disciplines to apply to the study. It's expensive as heck to underwrite those expeditions and I'll venture the majority of it is funded by pharmaceutical companies or oil companies.

My biggest issue is with deforestation which I think is what the majority of the civilized world also complains about. That's total destruction of a chunks of the forest at a time forcing the forest into smaller and smaller areas all in the name of progress. Housing, farms and industry replace the forested area and pollute what remains. I understand why the countries in question do it and I doubt anything short of financial compensation will make them stop. Without proper evaluation and consideration given to the eco-system, I think it's ignorantly throwing away a national treasure like the US did with wetlands in the southeast and most of the old, hardwood forests in the northeast.

I find it pretty amazing that any life was able to exist on this planet before humans showed up and decided to help.

I'm not sure of the concept of helping a rainforest by burning. Especially when its huge tracts that you can see from satelite.

Diversity measures of old growth temperate and tropical forest exceed the grassland and transitional forests that come up after clearing. Especially when the cleared land is maintained for cattle grazing or coffe plantations (as Ernie said). I have never heard of desert being the final transitional stage of rainforest!!! Continents have shifted and weather patterns change in the process, but rain over a rain forest is a biologically self perpetuating process (proven). More deserts have caused by humans in recent times than by rainforest transition(???) and continental drift. Ethiopia is one of the best examples where the forests were felled to develop Western agri practices. Once the trees were gone it stopped raining and then FAMINE. Same for the highlands of New Mexico where over grazing has converted grassland to desert.

There are some areas that are adapted to regular burns, but rainforests are generally not one of them.

Hi Mahon,

I'm glad that Ernie & Rick L. stepped up to the proverbial debate plate before I did. I would have had a difficult time figuring out where to start first. You raised several ideas that have much merit. It may take me a few messages to fully address your concerns:

You have a very articulate and interesting point of view and I welcome it. Thank you!! Bring it On!!

Best scenario, we can agree. Better yet, we can agree to disagree.

As far as burning rainforests. I was not thinking in terms about burning to regenerate a forest, as you suggested. I would not disagree with the merit of that practice. I did not know that countries were "smart" enough to do this. I am not very well travelled. I was thinking more like Ernie & Rick L; that acres of rainforest are being cut or burnt down in order to start cash crops of cattle, coffee, whatever. And once rainforests like this are gone: well they are gone and lost to us. I understand that countries will do this in order to get out of poverty. It is an economic reality, and I "think" they are willing to give up their rainforests in order to get out of poverty. And, No , I have never been into a rainforest. I was never that fortunate. My only point of reference comes from television (which I rarely watch) and internet or magazine articles.

That being said, I think I can still offer a somewhat relevant, semi-intelligent, commentary about what is happening to rainforests as well as other forests on this planet. I wish I was lucky enough to have had the opportunity and the financial resources to walk into a rainforest and see it first hand and to appreciate the miracle and beauty of it. Still, even if I did not have the opportunity or financial resources to visit one, I think I can still offer a valid opinion.

IMHO, I think that every acre of rainforest lost is a major tragedy. I would like to be optomistic and think that rainforests will be let alone to regenerate. Sadly, I don't think that will happen. I think they will be lost, once they are cut or burnt down.

In Maine, the same thing is happening, as it must be happening in Florida, or anywhere else on this planet, for that matter. I live in Southern Maine, and yes, all our major old hardwood forests are gone. One thing is going on, however. Many of those old fields that were cleared are growing back. Just like you said about rainforests: they grow back. However, IMHO, I don't think these hardwood forests will ever have the chance to regenerate, as we are going through a major building boom with the mortgage interest rates so low. I would wager that most of out old hardwood forests are gone. Can you say "3 acre building lots?"

In upper Maine, the debate still rages about clear cutting. I'm sure we have "tree huggers" here, as well as on the Pacific States protecting giant Sequoias and the like. Personally, I don't mind seeing a young person, who is passionate in what she believes in, living in a nest in an ancient old tree. She will say, "I'm not coming out. Come & get me." Good for her! She is making a point, gets some press, and I really appreciate that special sort of dedication and passion that a person like that has. In contrast, for the "tree huggers" who plant spikes in trees and run away: IMHO, I believe that is pure cowardice. I agree with you on that point. Employees just doing their jobs, should not be killed by these radicals.

OK, enough thinking for this old brain right now.

Please keep posting Patricik. It keeps my brain working with all that young energy & smarts that you have!!!

Some good studies came out of Canada in the last few years addressing the "move over theory" of logging. These studies looked at bird populations in the northern boreal forests.

In the first year or so after a clear cutting there was an increase in birds in adjacent tracts. There was a serious decline in following years (generally to below the levels seen precut) as resources were overwhelmed by more birds in less space, and a readjustment was taking place. A new steady state would ultimately be reached but was dependent on the size of the adjacent undisterbed tract of woods. With smaller tracts having fewer species and individuals than larger tracts. Regrowth areas (if allowed) have very few bird species in comparison, and generally the most opportunistic seed eaters. Great for sparrows, bad for warblers.


When you cut down a big patch of woods the animals in surrounding woods don't accept them with open arms, or even basic accomodation. They usually get into territorial battles, and the newbies generally loose and starve. It may just take a couple of years.

.

That being said, I think I can still offer a somewhat relevant, semi-intelligent, commentary about what is happening to rainforests as well as other forests on this planet. I wish I was lucky enough to have had the opportunity and the financial resources to walk into a rainforest and see it first hand and to appreciate the miracle and beauty of it. Still, even if I did not have the opportunity or financial resources to visit one, I think I can still offer a valid opinion.

IMHO, I think that every acre of rainforest lost is a major tragedy. I would like to be optomistic and think that rainforests will be let alone to regenerate. Sadly, I don't think that will happen. I think they will be lost, once they are cut or burnt down.

In Maine, the same thing is happening, as it must be happening in Florida, or anywhere else on this planet, for that matter. I live in Southern Maine, and yes, all our major old hardwood forests are gone. One thing is going on, however. Many of those old fields that were cleared are growing back. Just like you said about rainforests: they grow back. However, IMHO, I don't think these hardwood forests will ever have the chance to regenerate, as we are going through a major building boom with the mortgage interest rates so low. I would wager that most of out old hardwood forests are gone. Can you say "3 acre building lots?"

Please keep posting Patricik. It keeps my brain working with all that young energy & smarts that you have!!!

Hey Dusty and Patrick

Patrick, I agree with Dusty that you "should" keep posting. Understand that we all work within different frameworks and points of view though. :)

Dusty, you've never walked in a rainforest??

That's one heck of a shame. Locally, we still have some remnant rainforest here. True rainforest. An upper storey about 40 or so metres up, trunks of trees and then the ground with all it's attendant litter and the darker loving flora. Eerie and generally quiet (here at least). The rainforest that most people mentally picture is more really classified as jungle (although not quite). When rain forest is cleared, Jungle returns and only if you're really lucky and it's left alone for a looooonnnngggg time does rainforest return.

Rainforests aren't specifically tropical in nature either. We have rainforest in Tasmania so I'd be reasonably sure you've got "rainforest" up your way as well.

I'm interested in Patricks POV and have asked him for further info.

Cheers all
Stephan

Hi Stephan,

No I really have not gone into a rain forest.

Yes, I would love to. I think it would kill me as I am so sensitve to bugs. But I would give it a try!! I have some friends who went to Belize and loved it. That was only about 3 months ago. (I hope I am spelling it correctly!!) I would like to go there. It would be a big deal with having to make arrangements about taking care of the house, horses, all that stuff. My friends had alot of fun there. They travelled in a group and the prices were very inexpensive. I guess there are many USA ex-patriots living there as the standard of living is very affordable. They were initially afraid to travel to Belize, due to the uncertain political climate going on in that country.

They came out with a very positive experience of Belize. They were able to hire a driver and look at Mayan ruins. Said they saw tons of orchids!!! Wahhhh!!!!

I have been to the rainforests of South America and they are nothing like what Patrick had described. It was a beautiful experience and I even got to see a few orchids AND Phrags growing in the wild, totally out of this world when I saw a caudatum growing on a tree top. Rainforests are being destroyed as we speak and it is not even funny! :mad:

:therethere: Dusty

You have horses - There are a large number of people (mostly girls though) who would die to be in your shoes :D

For me, they're big majestic animals with quick hooves and sharp teeth (particularly if they mistake your fingers for the carrot but that's another story)

If you have allergies, you do need to take all the precautions. If you have fear, you need to face it - that aside - you're not missing all that much :evil:

Cheers
Stephan

Hee Hee!!!

Thanks Stephan!! :D

Yes horses need alot of care. My daughter thinks we may have a pregnant mare. The horse is looking fuller in the belly and Nina says that is not a "hay belly," so we may be into some serious horse issues really soon. This mare is a bit too old to breed!!! It would be her first foal and she must be 14+ years old or so. I do know that her mother is still breeding, so it might not be too bad.

The "other" horse issue is a 2 year old colt who has not been gelded yet. He would be the culprit.

Very interesting mix, if it happens. The mare is a retired Standard bred trotter and the stud would be a Tennessee Walker/Spotted Saddle horse.

Hee Hee. If anyone knows people who are interested in horses, please buy my book. It is being auctioned off and 100% of the profit will go to the forum.

Please check in about one year. We might have a baby horse to auction off.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Susan,
In walking through rain forest in St. Vincent, I have no recollection of any bugs whatsoever!
It was hot and humid tho...
:D

St. Vincent is a really lovely, non-touristy spot if anyone is looking for a fabulous, easy going, vacation spot. I would highly recommend it. Friendliest people on earth! Oh...wait....except you guys of course! :love:

Rainforests are supposed to be warm/hot and humid but then there are different climates in the rainforests also, it was so much cooler higher up in the mountains, big difference.

I remember watching TV on New Year's Eve for the big Y2K event. (Yup, I don't have a life, but I was really never into New Year's Eve parties that much.) Anyway the TV coverage was global.

I recall seeing an older, stout woman of Native American heritage singing with a bunch of children. I believe it was in Brazil. She was in front of this amazing waterfall in this lush, tropical rainforest and the song was about preserving rainforests for the next generations. That was 5 years ago!! These natural resources are finite, and we still keep losing them.

OK...Susan gets off soapbox.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b190/paphiopere/Paphiopedilumanitumestretcostatredu.jpg

My Paphiopedilum anitum stems from Sun Moon Orchids in an Orchid Show organized in Rome. I believe that to expose plants in an event of these type, already has to have passed control of CITE and in this manner, every buyer in Rome, has bought a legal plant. Not? ???.. If is not correct, that me report Thanks

Wow, nice photo. :clap: I love the overall shape as you captured it.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b190/paphiopere/Paphiopedilumanitumestretcostatredu.jpg

My Paphiopedilum anitum stems from Sun Moon Orchids in an Orchid Show organized in Rome. I believe that to expose plants in an event of these type, already has to have passed control of CITE and in this manner, every buyer in Rome, has bought a legal plant. Not? ???.. If is not correct, that me report Thanks

Sounds very nice. Do you have a font picture of the flower ?

The legality of anitum is subject to some caution, especially for mature plants.

Beautiful, photo, Paphiopere! I love this species and thanks for sharing!

Paphiphere,

Nice adductum! :poke: Would love to see the front view!

thanks

Very nice - so dark! I'll join the croud wishing to also see a frontal view. :)

Yes, full frontal, please. (This is starting to sound likd orchid porn!) :lol:

I love the way that the colors in the pouch graduate from yellows to deep rose or burgundies. Very pretty!!!!!

OOps! posted twice.

The truth is that if that has a very dark color that almost itself is not appreciated in the photo, al natural is seen a lot but dark http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b190/paphiopere/Paphiopedilumanitum11reduit.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b190/paphiopere/Paphiopedilumanitum8reduida.jpg
A hug

Oh and I have forgot me to say that the flower is of long duration
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b190/paphiopere/Paphiopedilumanitum7reduida.jpg

Do these tend to be single flowering?

It looks so beautiful!

No, like adductum it is also multi. I LOVE this species!!!! :heart:

Yes, that is what I thought.

Thank You for the photos!!!! Love that dark dorsal!!!!

You have so many lovely plants in the European Union. Does the Trade Agreement allow a person to buy and sell orchids within the EU member countries? I know you don't have a "Constitution" yet, due to the controversial French and Dutch "No" vote. But I guess you will have an agreement once you work out things!!!

Great Plants! I wish the USA could join the EU. :D

Beatuiful!

Is it difficult to acquire such a plant in the EU?

Hi Paphiopere,

Thank you for the photos that you posted. It is lovely.

Thanks!!!

Just a bit of trivia the term "anitum" comes from the Filipino word "Anito" which is usually an idol (almost always black) made from wood or stone, representing ancestor spirits. Ancestor worship were practiced by native Philippine tribes before the advent of Christianity and Islam in the islands.
I guess here they use Anitum more to describe how dark the color of the flower is as compared to the black colored idol.

In the Philippines I do often hear this particular orchid called as the "Black Orchid". Ive seen some specimens (in photos) and described with completely
black or very dark maroon dorsals with no striations of the adductum which it closely resembles.

I very much wanted to know that. Thank you Jeff!

In EU is not very dificil to find Paphiopedilum species. Normally they have been produced in the own one EU and for that reason you can buy in various vendors but some of them sends off certificate CITE without problems

Thanks Jeff by your kind explanation, remains noted in my file of anitum

Have seen P. antium seedlings for sale in the EU but haven,t purchased any because i would have to import it to the
UK.Not completely convinced that this will be hassle free.

http://iweyshen.myweb.hinet.net/Polyantha-adductum.htm
Here has some anitum picture which I collects to give everybody the reference[/url]

Hi iweyshen!

I have been to that site many times before, great site with great photos, btw! Also, welcome to the forum and thanks for joining!