Since there appears to be a lot of interest in Phrag. kovachii plants, why don't a number of the Forum members get together and order a flask of seedlings and share them.

I'll look into it. How many are interested in a flask?

Steve,
The easiest way is to email Peruflora and find out what shows they will be attending in the U.S. I would think one of the Forum members could pick up the flask/flasks or make the necessary arrangements. They don't take VISA but you can pay cash when you get the flasks. It is very easy to do.

There's no way I could afford a flask of the species but I would certainly join any effort to buy a flask and split the cost and contents.

Peruflora contact manoloarias10@yahoo.com


Check out kovachii 'Goliath' x 'Jewel'
kovachii 'Tupac Amaru' x 'Goliath'
wallisii 'Rapunzel' x kovachii 'Goliath' :Party:

I have sources for legal kovachii flasks already here in the US.
While I don't typically deal in Phrags, all i need to do is pick up the phone and we can get some. How many seedling does everyone want? It will be difficult to divide a flask without growing them out a bit first.

I would probably be interested in a couple seedlings when the time comes and they've grown more.

If I may be presumptious, I don't think any of us would really be bothered by waiting for seedlings to be of a size that allows a really good chance of life. I'm sure they'll thrive in your care until hardy enough in your opinion to mail.

I can't guestimate how many I would want until I know what prices are involved but I would at least want two.

:wink: You could even feed our new baby anxiety by occasionally posting pix of the flask or flasks.

Great Idea Ernie!!!

I'd be interested for sure. I don't know how many I'd want until I know the cost. And, I could watch the babies grow!!! It would be fun!!! I would not plan to hybridize/breed/sell. I just would like to grow some.

I would love to get a piece of this as well. I probably only want a few adn it woudl also depend on the cost.

paul

I would take one if the price was not too high.

I'd love to see what wallisii 'Rapunzel' x kovachii 'Goliath' will bloom out as. Whatever flask(s) are decided upon, I'd love to get a few seedlings. Don't know how many I can buy, until we know how much a flask will cost, how many people are interested, all that good, logical money stuff.

How many seedlings are in the flasks that have been sold to date? I think they have been going for about $600 a flask if I remember from previous posts.

At 25 seedlings per flask thats about $24/seedling. I'd do a couple at that price.

Yup, I could do a couple for that price.

I would definately do 2-4 seedlings if they are ~$24. If I have a vote I would love to get the wallisii X.

Paul

Wait, so you would rather wallisii x kovachii versus kovachii x sib?

How many seedlings are in the flasks that have been sold to date? I think they have been going for about $600 a flask if I remember from previous posts.

At 25 seedlings per flask thats about $24/seedling. I'd do a couple at that price.

I thought they were 500 from Peru. Haven't looked in a long time though. If there are 25 plants in the flask, you really have to assume that you will lose a few. Say 5. That leaves 20 plants. Then we are more like 30 per plant, plus pots and mix aren't free, etc...

But, if anybody wants to buy a couple flasks, I'll play too. I'd take half a flask of anything (species or hybrid, but species is best). Maybe I'd take a whole flask if somebody else wants to do the paperwork and it gets the price to a reasonable level. I'm patient, but not nearly patient enough to deal with importation.

I would prefer species to hybrid. I agree with Rob that $30+ is a more realistic price, and I am ok with that.

I don't know if there is a standard number. I'm probably spoiled by Troy Meyers when you pretty much get a minimum of 25. I've also been pretty lucky I guess and haven't lost any phrag seedlings yet.

But even $30 apeice is still cool.

I would probably do one myself.

Wait, so you would rather wallisii x kovachii versus kovachii x sib?

I don't know about Steves source, but the plants from Peruflora probably wouldn't be kovachii x sib as the wild collected plants probably are unrelated, or at the very least distantly related. They would be selfings or out crosses.

Kyle

I would definately do 2-4 seedlings if they are ~$24. If I have a vote I would love to get the wallisii X.

Paul

My vote would be for a species over any cross and I can do 2-3 seedlings.

I am interested in two of each, the sib cross and the wallissi cross.

Thanks!

I would be willing to buy one seedling at ~$24....

-PM

I'm definately interested. How do we organise this buy?

Paphcreek,

Let's first all agree on a flask. I'm fine either way with any flask people want to get. I would imagine that the sib cross would be the first one to get, and would gladly chip in if that was the only flask we could get.

Then if there is anymore interest, perhaps the Kovachii (sorry about the spellings) x wallissii cross?

I am very flexible and can go either way so we can work it out to get a nice flask!!!!

I would be most interested in a species or two and a hybrid or two, and I agree the x wallisii sounds very nice.

Even though I've basically sworn off getting more phrags...I'd definitly join in for a (very) few ...afterall, it is kovachii! Take care, Eric

Looks like we have takers. I will make the phone call.

Just a question, but what would you folks be willing to pay per seedling of kovachii album?

I've seen reds and purples, there's an alba??????????

Is this different or the same as the phantom white "micropetalum" we've been hearing about lately?
(in OD this quarter.)

I am looking at v63-3, I don't see what you are speaking of.

I am talking about kovachii f. albovirens, a green/white version.

I am looking at v63-3, I don't see what you are speaking of.

I am talking about kovachii f. albovirens, a green/white version.
V69-3 p. 134 - Heard on the Street.

"Rumors are circling of yet aonther new Phragmipedium species from the Andes. This supposed flower is alleged to be somewhere in size and shape between fischeri and kovachii and is purported to be pure white. Either someone is pulling our leg or tis is another major slipper orchid discovery."

This rumor was brought up a couple times in discussion here as well, but I can't recall WHICH kov. thread they are in.

I am looking at v63-3, I don't see what you are speaking of.

I am talking about kovachii f. albovirens, a green/white version.
V69-3 p. 134 - Heard on the Street.

"Rumors are circling of yet aonther new Phragmipedium species from the Andes. This supposed flower is alleged to be somewhere in size and shape between fischeri and kovachii and is purported to be pure white. Either someone is pulling our leg or tis is another major slipper orchid discovery."

This rumor was brought up a couple times in discussion here as well, but I can't recall WHICH kov. thread they are in.

It was probably brought up by me, since I heard it from Jerry Fischer.

I asked Dennis D'alessandro about this plant specifically. He is pretty sure this is bogus. Evidently he mentioned something about a very pale (or albinistic, perhaps) kovachii that he had seen to somebody in the Chicago area. That got transferred through a few different people. And eventually to Jerry. Jerry mentioned it in his talk at the spring AOS meeting. Now everybody is talking about the 'white micropetalum species'. Dennis is certain they are talking about the alba kovachii.

I thought that was the source - the AOS meeting.
Just like the old "operator" game, huh?

I'm up for two seedlings.

I wish I could get some

I wish I could get some

:therethere:


I always feel badly about our not all being equal in our availability. We are so spoiled!

I'm not speaking of anything other than kovachii f. albovirens.

I'm short on time, so just a quick question.

I see in this thread expressions like "white micropetalum", "kovachii f. albovirens" and "kovachii album". Also there is mentioning of something on Orchid Digest. I've until now never heard of a album kovachii or any white micropetalum. I'm wonder if someone can fill me in on that through PM or email (rob_zuiderwijk@phragweb.info)?
Thanks in advance.

RZu.

I'm short on time, so just a quick question.

I see in this thread expressions like "white micropetalum", "kovachii f. albovirens" and "kovachii album". Also there is mentioning of something on Orchid Digest. I've until now never heard of a album kovachii or any white micropetalum. I'm wonder if someone can fill me in on that through PM or email (rob_zuiderwijk@phragweb.info)?
Thanks in advance.

RZu.

No no!! I think we're all scratching our heads and would prefer it be posted openly. Any information about it Steve, would be greatly appreciated.

I think I would like to "Keep It Simple, Stupid," as that is how the old saying goes, and I really feel stupid about these. These cutting-edge albino ones sound great, but are way beyond my league, and probably prohibitively expensive. I would prefer to take "baby steps," and just kick into a flask of normal species color or with a flask of wallisii hybrid.

Of course, I will be agreeable for pitching in for a flask of anything that is kovachiccii, if that is what is evenutally decided. (sorry if I can't spell it yet. I'm working on it.) :lol:

I would definitely want to try the normal form of the species before any variants......especially one I haven't seen....Take care, Eric

I would definitely want to try the normal form of the species before any variants......especially one I haven't seen....Take care, Eric

Well said Eric!!! Thanks! I'm way too wordy!!!

Just got to see the rest of this thread a little late,----->

Call me a party pooper, but I remeber reading somewhere that Phragmipedium CANNOT produce white pigments, but only yellows on certain plants. I heard this recently from a good freind. I forgo thte names of the pigments, as I am not into the names of these, but he sounded like he knew his stuff very well on pigments, especially on ladyslippers.....

I seriously doubt that there is a Pure white kovachii, but it may be possible that a yellow pops up, or at least a lighter colored purple, like lack of pigment, like albino, but not white..... the purple coloring of schlimii and fischerii do not yield yellow or white flowering plants, the most colorless flower of schlimii I have seen had a pale pink coloration, like on the pouch of older delenatii.....

I doubt it, but we will see very soon. Someone visiting the sites in bloom would have mentioned something to someone, and I think it is guess..... don't listen to me, I doubted years ago about a pure black flowering orchid, but later found Maxillaria schunkeana, the only true black orchid species.

ttyal,
-PM

Correction for above, read about the "haint kovachii", and read another article about the pigments only being of yellows, and then heard about pigments from a freind. Gees, I screed up, I am soooo tired now,

Well, I would be willing to contribute to the Phrag. kovachii flask. Perhaps we should all send our share of the money for the flask to Peru Orchids, and we will get our few plants distributed to our front doors.

I personally am interested in seeing Phrag. kovachii here and the walisii x kovachii, this must be a real odd ball cross, one that a person that would like to make the craziest flower would do, must be spectacular, cannot possibly imagine it, only a walisii that is purple, and wider petals, and a shrter pouch and wider, and the synsepal relatively larger as well...... how about Phrag. lindenii x kovachii?

I would be willing to do this if we have enough people and money to buy at least one flask, and we figure out all the charges and assign payments to each other..... or we all could save some money and buy ourselves an entire flask. Perhaps Peru Orchids will make some half and 1/4 flasks for the group?????

ttyal,
-PM

There are certainly more "black" appearing orchids than any picture of Maxillaria schunkeana that I've seen like the predominantly dark, dark burgundy of of Paph Cesar Delgado pouches or the Paph Scott Ware. Bottom line is they ain't true "black."

You sure they aren't black? I got to see a Maxillaria schunkeana in bloom, and asked to take it to a ligter spot. I got to look at the petals and sepals through the sun, and did not see any purple hue......

Here is one secret I use for determining the colors and comapring/contrasting flowers to come up with an identity of orchid.

Here is what I do:

1) Find a picture of the species in which you think your plant is. Look at the angle in which the picture was taken. Try and get a front view picture, and not a side or back view picture. Take this picture on the internet, copy and paste on your 'Paint' program [go to 'All Programs', 'Accesories', then 'Paint']. Make the picture of this plant from the internet fint in the boundaries of the white board of the Paint program. Widen the white board [you will see a tiny little square, almost invisible, in the middle parts to expand the boundaries], and keep your internet picture on the left.

2) Take a picture of your flower, about the same angle as that of the picture you borrowed on the internet. Upload it onto that same Paint window, and paste the picture, move the picture off on top of your borrowed picture, and put next to the borrowed picture.

3) With all this ready, all you have to do is right click both of the pictures, and select 'Invert Colors'. This will make the colors reverse. You can easily compare color hues that are reversed than seen in sunlight. You can compare even the slightest details easier, and can see hairs not seen, liquids that are produced by the Staminode not seen normally, and so many other things. You can easily compare and contrast colors. I have used this countless times, and it works.

This is really a good way of differing and comparing flowers, give it a try with two different pics n the web, start out with Paph. malipoense, as they are all the same. Then, as you see my point and get the hang of, then try a Paph. malipoense and a Paph. jackii, or possibly a Paph. emersonii x concolor with a Paph. hangianum. You will see some interesting things, and be VERY suprised in what you will find!

Though that was :offtopic: of me to talk about this, I found it sort of relevant with the black mantioned...... perhaps more and more people will use my idea and we will find more things than we ever would expect. I have introduced this concept to Dr. Luer for his Pleurothallids, and we will see what difference it makes soon, if another volume comes out....lol.....

ttyal,
-PM

Well, I just tried Maxillaria schunkeana on my crazy way of comapring/contrasting orchid flower colors, and it is showing up white for the most part, so that means it is black. However, Maxillaria schunkeana may also be found in dark dark purple, but all the pics I have found are all showing up white, and one is showing up white-green, so a purple hue is present.....

just a fun thing to do when comparing.....

-PM

Patrick, you may or may not be aware, but white doesn't have to result from pigments. Merely a lack thereof will suffice.

everyone: I'll get more info on the green kovachii, hopefully.

I give up... :shock:

Steve,

Have you seen the albino P. kovachii?

-PM

I personally am interested in seeing Phrag. kovachii here and the walisii x kovachii, this must be a real odd ball cross, one that a person that would like to make the craziest flower would do, must be spectacular, cannot possibly imagine it, only a walisii that is purple, and wider petals, and a shrter pouch and wider, and the synsepal relatively larger as well...... how about Phrag. lindenii x kovachii?

The hybrids Phrag. (wallisii x kovachii) and Phrag. (lindenii x kovachii) will most likely look very much the same. Since Phrag. lindenii is basically a peloric Phrag. wallisii. It is also a known fact that all hybrids with the pouchless lindenii produce perfectly normal pouched flowers.

RZu.

P.S. My request for more info on the alba/white/yellow/green micranthum/kovachii was more out of interest for everything phrag, than that I wanted to buy one. First of all I probably cannot affort one and secondly at the moment I cannot give to proper conditions.

You certainly can provide phrags the right conditions perhaps even easier than growing other paph types, Rob and you don't even need that fish tank in my opinion. Plus, you've got us to help you so don't worry about it. They're not that expensive either unless you get into the rarer hybrids or species.

Just go buy one and get it over with, if you kill it, oh well, you'll still learn a lot and NOT kill the second one.

When's the flask getting here?? :D

I'll take 2 unless the price is out of this world.

Grandma

me too, don't care about the cross, but would love the opportunity to grow a kovachii seedling...Thistle

So I will take a sib X or the wallisii cross. I love species but I am a huge fan of long petals. Really I am not picky when it comes to a kovachii seedling.

Paul

Perhaps the manager can take our orders, combine them up, and propose an offer to Peru Orchids, and have our plants either shipped to the forum manager (either one), or if all possible (possibly very very very expensive), ship it to each of our homes.

What does everyone say about this? Perhaps we can really get with Peru Orchids, and see what all damage we can do..... I am up for a Phrag. kovachii, just the species, and then I am up for a cross..... just my personal preference, I would think having the species now is a little more desirable than a cross..... though they would be really nice.

Has anyone ever seen a Phrag. Beverly Fischer? I originally thought it was a Phrag. kovachii crossed with Phrag. fischerii, it is really interesting, and is not the largest purple flower, but is larger than schlimii or a fischerii! Really nice flower.....

ttyal, let us know what the plan is.....

-Patrick Mahon

The kovachii seedlings from Peruflora are still in flask and not ready to be removed yet. I would suggest ordering a flask/flasks and someone picking it up at an orchid show Peruflora will be attending. I'm sure they will be at the Miami International Show in Feb/06.

Has anyone ever seen a Phrag. Beverly Fischer? I originally thought it was a Phrag. kovachii crossed with Phrag. fischerii, it is really interesting, and is not the largest purple flower, but is larger than schlimii or a fischerii! Really nice flower.....

True, it is a lovely hybrid, and mine smelled deliciously of raspberries.
http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12&highlight=beverly

Peoples...I'm sure we're driving Steve nuts by now so please chill.

Sure, lots of us want a kovachii anything but make preferences known and let's let him figure out the logistics after contacting the source. He can determine what's available, tell us, let us decide, send him coins and buy, then hold until old enough to safely ship and that's a huge burden he's willing to take on just for us.

Again, I would opt for species but it's really a matter of what's available and I haven't seen a 'fer sure' list or prices yet. How about we wait for those?

Depending on cost, I feel like Amber & Grandma and believe I can buy two. I'll go along with whatever is available to make things easier and I just really want to have some to grow. I may be able to get a few more once we know all the specifics.

Thanks Steve!!!!

Maybe we need to start a pole?

I want to stick with the species.

Peru Flora might be coming to Miami? After they are in the US, they can ship it then, possibly to one of the managers of the forum for distribution to us little people?

I have tried to contact Peru Flora before, and recieved no answer from them.....

-ttyal,
-PM

For us older folks here, the hunt for Phrag Kovachii reminds me of a 1960's (0r 70's) movie called "Its a Mad Mad World." :lol:

Me too Susan and my intuition tells me Steve isn't a very patient person. That's why I posted as I did.

I agree with your intuition Ernie. And I don't want to get wormed!! (See your logo :lol: ) I want something kovachii (even if I can't spell it yet)

Kovachii is under the "Big W."

Sorry! :poke: Can't help it.

I heard that phrase used by a holographic arms dealer on Star Trek Next Generation and I just had to adopt it. I think it's a truism.

All I can say here in OZ is;

Please share any results as I'm unlikely to see any plants here for a few years :)

Stephan

So... since I'm the selfish one around here, how are we going to get our phrag kovachiis now? :mad:

Peruflora will not be coming to Miami anytime in the near future. So unless someone has an import permit... anyone... anyone... Bueller...?

So... since I'm the selfish one around here, how are we going to get our phrag kovachiis now? :mad:

Peruflora will not be coming to Miami anytime in the near future. So unless someone has an import permit... anyone... anyone... Bueller...?

Uh guys

I've found out that it's quite possible for me to import dry seed - it just has to be labelled correctly, the wind going in the right direction and the officer of the watch in the right frame of mind. My guys can hold it up but only because they're ignorant, not because it's illegal. [I had this confirmed in the last week by the owners of two nurseries who do it themselves]

Given the patience "normally" exhibited by orchid growers, is it not possible for you to import dry seed?

Stephan

Congratulations Stephan!!! :D
So what's your first seed purchase going to be?? :poke:

I bet it would be pretty hard to find people offering kovachii seed.
Why doesn't someone contact steve off line and see if he'll still help. Did anyone confirm his claim that he had a leagal source within the US. I find that hard to believe.

Kyle

Kyle,
There are a number of growers who have legal Phrag. kovachii in the U.S. . As the first release of the plants was in flask at the WOC in Dijon, and the plants were very small, I seriously doubt that they have been removed from flask. The growers would have signed a form not to sell or trade these seedlings. I believe there is approximately 19 months remaining on this time constraint.
If anyone is seriously interested in Phrag. kovachii seedlings it might be a good idea to contact these growers and ask to reserve plants for when they become available.

I am aware that legal plant are in Canada and the US. I just do not think that those people are selling them, contract or no contract. And if they are selling them I bet the price would be much higher then what they paid. Steve hinted at having a source within the US other then Peru flora. Maybe he does, but I find it hard to swallow.
I also remember someone from brazil posting saying his nursary will soon have legal flasks for sale. Any one remember that, or know if they are ready
And does Mahon still visit this board I want to know more about if Kovachii is in ecuador. anyone know anything about that

(Sorry for the lack of question marks, the keyboard I using is set to French so question marks come up as É...)

I asked Ecuagenera about kovachii and they told me no.

The legal owners of flasks of Phrag. kovachii in the U.S. are:

1) Chuck Acker/Flasks by Chuck Acker
2) Jery Fischer Orchids Ltd.
3) Orchids by the Ackers

Those are the people who got plants from Peruflora. Have any others legally exported from Peru? Or another country? (brazil)

I am only familiar with Peruflora.

From what I understand, I would be very cautious about P. kovachii from Peruflora. There has been much discussion of kovachii on the Orchid Guide Digest. Contact Peter Croezen (orchids@golden.net) if you are interested in his take on this business.

Would you care to elaborate on what you have heard about Peruflora?

My question, and Peter's answer, was in Orchids Digest, Vol 7, Issue 45. Peter's posting is now found in the OGD archives at: http://orchidguide.com/pipermail/orchids_orchidguide.com/2005-January/000818.html/ If you go there, my question is seen by clicking on Previous Message.
It may be that things have changed -- this was back in January. That's why I suggested contacting Peter. He may have new information that I don't know about.
I do see that peruflora's website is now up, and he lists the legitimate owners in US of P. kovachii -- but these are only the people who purchased from him. There is another nursery in Peru who also has legitimate kovachii's (see OGD posting). I suspect there are legitimate kovachii owners in the US, and elsewhere, that purchased plants/flasks from this other nursery.
Dot

I was inspired by Stephan in Brisbane's success with finding out about importing seeds from the Australian govt, so I emailed the USDA's APHIS department about why we would need an import permit for Phrag kovachii, since artificially propogated flasks or paphs and phrags are normally exempt from CITES.

Here is their reply:
Due to the controversy surrounding this species, currently there's only one nursery you may obtain these orchids from in Peru, called Peruanino. Typically flasked orchids do not require CITES certification, yet in this case Peru has decided to issue them anyway. As the following letter from the US Fish & Wildlife Service explains, you must follow these instructions, otherwise the shipment/s may be seized by the U.S. government when they arrive here.

They must be inspected at one of the USDA's 16 Plant Inspection Stations prior to release, and an Import Permit must be obtained from the PPQ Permit Unit that can be contacted at 1-877-770-5990, or try their website at www.aphis.usda.gov/ppq/permits for obtaining the Import Permit. If it's for commercial use, you will also be required to obtain a General Permit (aka-Protected Plant Permit) which allows for commercial international trade of endangered species.

T. Mark Thurmond
Botanist(National CITES Coordinator)
USDA-APHIS-PPQ
4700 River Road, Unit 52, Suite 4D-04.20
Plant Safeguarding & Pest Identification(PSPI)
Riverdale, MD 20737-1236
(301)734-8891-ph/734-5276-fax


Attn: USDA/APHIS: Mark Thurmond, Bud Petit de Mange, John Arcery, and Tim
Torbett 5/20/05

The Peruvian CITES Management Authority, INRENA, recently informed us that
the only Peruvian company authorized to export flasks of Phragmipedium
kovachii and its hybrids from Peru is Peruanino. No other company has
export authorization from Peru. The Peruvian Management Authority also
informed us that Peru does do not consider these flasked specimens to be
exempt from CITES controls, even if they meet the recommendation of
Resolution Conf. 11.11 (Rev. CoP13) (Regulation of trade in plants)
regarding the exemption for artificially propagated flasked seedlings of
Appendix-I orchids. As a result, potential U.S. importers of flasks of P.
kovachii from Peru should be advised that they must have a CITES export
permit from INRENA and that they must bring their shipments into the United
States through a designated CITES plant port for inspection and clearance.
After consulting with our Solicitor in the Department of the Interior, we
have confirmed that the U.S. Government can enforce Peru's stricter
domestic measure with regard to flasked seedlings of P. kovachii under the
provisions of the U.S. Lacey Act, since this plant species is listed under
CITES.

Please let us know if you have additional questions regarding this species.

Mark Albert
FWS/DMA


Anyways, Peruflora is simply the international brand name for Peruanino.

VERY interesting, Marcus!
I really was under the impression that there were two legal nurseries.
I wonder what happened. :confused:

(nice little monopoly they've got there...) Sigh.

Silly Question time

CITES was enacted to aid conservation of threatened species by stopping profiteering and habitat destruction, right?

:confused:


Cheers
Stephan

No- CITES was created to stop international trade in endangered species. There are absolutely no provisions regarding habitat destruction, and there is nothing in it with regard to preserving endangered species within a nation's borders. In fact, if a nation isn't a CITES signatory, than its rules do not apply at all. (I believe that is why Taiwan became such a big center for import/export of collected paphs, and why paphs were so easily moved out of Vietnam. I do not know if Taiwan and Vietnam have signed on to the treaty yet...by now they might have.) CITES big claim to fame was with elephants....by making the trade in ivory illegal, the destruction of elephants by poachers was greatly reduced. Of course, there is a big difference in the ease of smuggling plants as compared to the ease of smuggling elephant tusks......Take care, Eric

No- CITES was created to stop international trade in endangered species. There are absolutely no provisions regarding habitat destruction, and there is nothing in it with regard to preserving endangered species within a nation's borders. In fact, if a nation isn't a CITES signatory, than its rules do not apply at all. (I believe that is why Taiwan became such a big center for import/export of collected paphs, and why paphs were so easily moved out of Vietnam. I do not know if Taiwan and Vietnam have signed on to the treaty yet...by now they might have.) CITES big claim to fame was with elephants....by making the trade in ivory illegal, the destruction of elephants by poachers was greatly reduced. Of course, there is a big difference in the ease of smuggling plants as compared to the ease of smuggling elephant tusks......Take care, Eric

Sorry Eric, the wierd Australian sense of humour at work here.

I knew the answer and the question, as such, was rhetorical. The original intent of CITES and it's current application are two different things. You and I recognise that - Blind freddy would recognise it. I was being ironic with my comment/question in that governments (even though we elect them to be) haven't got the intellligence God gave to a rock.

Cheers
Stephan