Dear Paph friends,
In Japan, we have many clones whose name is Paph. insigne ‘Harefield Hall’ on their labels.
Some clones must be Paph. Goliath. Although I have checked Paph. insigne ‘Harefield Hall’ around the world on line, I found so many clones too. I guess, the confusion has extended around the world. A Paph friend of mine in Spain resolved the history of Paph. insigne ‘Harefield Hall’ and identified Paph. Goliath with RHS orchid registrar. The parentage of Paph. Goliath was not clear on it’s record but they found it was born from (Paph. insigne 'Harefield Hall' x Paph. Troilus 'Amy Moore' )
URL http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/RHS/enNewGrex4.html
Now, one problem that has to be resolved was brought up to us. It is which clone is the true Paph. insigne ‘Harefield Hall’. Now we have the sketch as the record in RHS data, which is a reliable. Any Paph friend helps me? If you have the photo of Paph. insigne ‘Harefield Hall’ around you, attache it on this page please. I want to discuss with you too. (by Paphpaph from Japan)

I am sorry, I will be of no help at all in this, but I am very happy to welcome you here!
Please feel at home, we are a friendly group!

:welcome:

Hello paphpaph and Welcome!!!! :D

I cannot answer your question, but we have some very knowledgeable members on this forum who will be able to help you.

Please check back. I'm sure you will have very many replies to your question

Hi, Tanaka!

Nice to see you here on the forum and :welcome: to the slipper community!

Welcome Paphpaph!

I am sure you will enjoy this excellent forum!

Greetings Paphpaph!! Glad to see you could join us!

Dear Paph friends,
In Japan, we have many clones whose name is Paph. insigne ‘Harefield Hall’ on their labels.
Some clones must be Paph. Goliath. Although I have checked Paph. insigne ‘Harefield Hall’ around the world on line, I found so many clones too. I guess, the confusion has extended around the world. A Paph friend of mine in Spain resolved the history of Paph. insigne ‘Harefield Hall’ and identified Paph. Goliath with RHS orchid registrar. The parentage of Paph. Goliath was not clear on it’s record but they found it was born from (Paph. insigne 'Harefield Hall' x Paph. Troilus 'Amy Moore' )
URL http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/RHS/enNewGrex4.html
Now, one problem that has to be resolved was brought up to us. It is which clone is the true Paph. insigne ‘Harefield Hall’. Now we have the sketch as the record in RHS data, which is a reliable. Any Paph friend helps me? If you have the photo of Paph. insigne ‘Harefield Hall’ around you, attache it on this page please. I want to discuss with you too. (by Paphpaph from Japan)

Many earlier sources report that insigne "Harefield Hall" the true one did not make clumps easily, and that it was as sterile as a mule (or nearly so such as Maudiae 'The Queen', Alma Gevaert'Mme Maurice Mertens' and Clair de Lune 'Edgar van Belle', both three having copycats under those names that to breed!), despite claims by some British growers at that time. Another insigne from that time has been able to bred scarcely, and was very similar to "Harefield Hall"

Maybe this can helps. insigne "Harefield Hall" at cheap (US$30-50) prices from the Netherlands are simply a cross of 2 insigne, they are not even divisions, that part of the story is clear.

Another doubtful insigne is sanderianum "Gladiator"...

I have one that is probably the oldest plant in my collection and was originally purchased in the 1970's. It's has thin leaves like hirsutissimum if this helps, and doesn't look like a hybrid. When it blooms I will be sure to get a pic for you.

PS Welcome to the Forum!!

Jon

I have one that is probably the oldest plant in my collection and was originally purchased in the 1970's. It's has thin leaves like hirsutissimum if this helps, and doesn't look like a hybrid. When it blooms I will be sure to get a pic for you.

PS Welcome to the Forum!!

Jon

The true insigne "Harefield Hall" has wide thick short leaves, 1" x 4-6"

Dear many Paph friends,

Thank you everybody.
I'm very happy to hear from many Paph friends in this forum.
I want to enjoy Paphs with you.....

About Paph. insigne 'Harefield Hall', I'm looking forward to hearing you too....

PaphPaph

Well now I'm very curious. I recently acquired a purported insigne 'Harefield Hall' so I'll be anxious for it to bloom to see if it's the real deal. It's small so it may be a year or two. Or more. *sigh* :roll:

Dear Slipperfriends,
the base for the decision if you have a true insigne 'Harefield Hall' is the article published in Gardeners' Chronicle 1898
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/og48/HarefieldHallGardenersChronicle1898.jpg

In my picture collection I found also a picture of but I am not sure if it is the true clone
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/og48/Paph_insigne_-HarefieldHall-1.jpg

Best greetings

Olaf

Very nice flower Olaf!

Yeah, that's a beauty!
(Great job on the photos, by the way, Olaf!) :joy:

Thanks for the compliment Heather. I am on the way to learn how I can put the pictures in.

Olaf

Over the years i have purchased several plants labelled "Harefield Hall"...all have bloomed out to be ordinary forms of insigne...unimpressive, and not even as vigorous as the simple clone labelled "Paph insigne, Assam" that I bought over 23 years ago and still grows and blooms well for me. Take care, Eric

Dear everybody,
Hi Olaf,
Thank you very much for your reply. Olaf, I'm very happy to see you on this board.
Your Photo is interesting. But would you compare with the sketch of insigne 'Harefield Hall ' of RHS data. I'm sorry to use this sketch wit ought RHS's permission.
In Japan, we have so many insigne ' Harefield Hall ' Almost of all plants were imported from USA.
Now, I have only 2 plants whose flowers are similar to the sketch. What do you think?
SO, I want to know and see the photos of the true insigne ‘ Harefield Hall’
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/insigneHfH.html

(PaphPaph)

I work with one of the oldest and largest collections of paphs. I will try to attach a picture of P. insigne 'Harefield Hall' here. It is triploid, the flower is quite larger than the normal diploid. About the size of my hand. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/SpuJr/PA012a.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/SpuJr/PA012b.jpg

Awesome :)

The oldest collection????? What you got? I'm drooling in anticipation.:drool:


Cheers
Stephan

Key word, "one".

Not the oldest collection, but it does date back to the 1950s. It was part of a private collection of a well-known paph breeder in Hawaii. It has now been generously donated to the University of Hawaii (not all of it, but a substatial amount).

Although I cannot state all the species and hybrids, most of the plants are the old "big, single" flowered kind.

I try to see the photos again
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/insigneHfH2.html

Hi paphpaph,

This might work: just click on the underlined "link" to see your photos. And WOW!!! They are lovely!!

http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/insigneHfH2.html

I would imagine that the flower in the upper right hand corner might be the insigne 'Harefield Hall'?

Best Wishes!

Dear Susan,

Thank you very much of your kindness.
In truth, I wanted to attch the photos on this bord.

Upper Left : The sketch of insigne 'Harefield Hall' from RHS Data
Upper right: The photo from Olaf
Lower 2 photos: Paph. insigne ' Harefield Hall ' in Japan that looks simialr flower with the sketch above and were selected from so many insigne 'harefield Hall' on their labels.

Paphpaph[/url]

Dear Paphpaph,
many thanks for the interesting picture of the RHS, My picture was made at an exhibition in Germany and was made of a plant shown by british orchidfriends.
I think it shows the real 'Harefield Hall', a little bit darker than in the original sketch.

Could you mail me a good scan of this sketch?

Best greetings

Olaf

Dear Susan,

Thank you very much of your kindness.
In truth, I wanted to attch the photos on this board.

Paphpaph

Hi Paphpaph!
I think the problem may be that instead of linking an actual photo ending in .jpg, .tif, etc, you are trying to link a link to another site. So, using will work best instead of .

However, if you try linking the original photos, then you would want to use the [img] tags. I hope that makes sense and helps, somewhat.

Good luck!!

Here we go:


The sketch of insigne 'Harefield Hall' from RHS Data

http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/insigne1.jpg

The photo from Olaf

http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/insigne2.jpg

Paph. insigne ' Harefield Hall ' in Japan that looks simialr flower with the sketch above and were selected from so many insigne 'harefield Hall' on their labels.

http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/insig3.jpg

http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/insig4.jpg


This is such a beautiful species! I wish mine would bloom!!! I believe it was Gideon who posted a speciman size insigne in the photo gallery that I'm still drooling after!!! :love:

Also keep in mind that different cultural conditions will cause variations despite being a clone. I believe high-lighted conditions will fade out the colors a little bit compared to a flower in low light.

Also keep in mind that different cultural conditions will cause variations despite being a clone. I believe high-lighted conditions will fade out the colors a little bit compared to a flower in low light.

Yes but Olaf's one has definitely nothing to do with Harefield hall, dots, dorsal size and shape... color...

I could not resist reposting this photo. It is of Gideon's magnificent insigne. It is in South Africa. It is NOT mine!!! OOHH I really WISH it was mine, but it's not. This is one of the most beautiful plant photos that I have ever seen. I had to go back into the past threads until I found this photo. It is a huge plant and perhaps might fit the description of 'Harefield Hall.' (Actually, if you take a good look at this plant, it does have that "almost stripe" marking on the dorsal that shows up in the original illustration.)

http://home.telkomsa.net/thomasriver/images/orchids/Paph.%20Insigne.jpg


Gideon, I hope you don't mind that I posted your photo in this thread about insignes. I just think your plant is one of the most beautiful things I have ever seen!!!! It is magnificent, and I wanted people to see it!!!!!!

Sorry, I keep thinking about Gideon's plant and thinking that it is the closest insigne to the RHS illustration. I can only hope that Gideon will check into this forum and has a close up photo of one of the blooms.

I agree that Olaf's photo, lovely as it is, does not look like the illustration. One obvious difference is the greenish color in the Dorsal; and also the shape and wavyness of it. The other two really do not look like the illustration either: colors & markings are off.

I have an uneducated eye. That is why I'm trying to educate it and am so happy that I have paph friends to help me.

Thank you all for helping me learn. I hope I was able to contribute something to this post in return.

In terms of fading colors, I have found that in many paphs, the colder the temperature at which the buds develop, the more intense the color. My insigne occasionally blooms in summer....these blooms are very pale (and also don't last as long as normal). The blooms that occur at the normal time of year, winter, are much darker. I once had a fairreanum (bizarrely labelled "Giganteum".....while the stems were very long, the bloom was not very large). One year I allowed it to develop its bud in a bedroom. It had a pleasing white dorsal, with the usual few stripes of red. Every other year it bloomed in my cold room....and the dorsal was nearly solid red. My haynaldianum also has better color when it blooms in the coldest part of winter. Take care, Eric

Here are some close-ups of two of my clones as well as another photo of the large plant, I will see if I can take a close-up of the large plant's flowers tomorrow

http://home.telkomsa.net/thomasriver/images/orchids/paph%20insigne2.jpg
http://home.telkomsa.net/thomasriver/images/orchids/paph%20insigne3.jpg
http://home.telkomsa.net/thomasriver/images/orchids/paph%20insigne.jpg

YEP! That's a helluva plant there Gideon!!

What a nice and beautiful specimen plant! :clap2:

Glorious!!!

Oh Yes, When I saw Gideon's original photo of THAT plant, I almost passed out. Of course, I remembered it. Who wouldn't?

Gideon, How long have you owned that plant?? How did you get it? I would imagine that you being in South Africa, you might have the closest plant to "Harefield Hall."

And, if not, that plant should be awarded in its own right!

Eric,

I think you are right on about what you say about temperature effects on color. If you look at the pictures I posted earlier you would notice the color to be somewhat faded. This plant is in Hawaii where it is constantly warm, so I am willing to bet if I were to place it in a cooler area, it would look more like the RHS picture. Also, the flower only lasted for about a week.

Gideon,

Very nice plant. I see you hang it? Whatever you are doing, it sure seems to work! Thanks for sharing.

Those are great photos :clap:

Eric & Gideon,

Yes, I understan and agree the color will be changed dependent on temperature.
But the spots' situation will be not change so much.
We will e able to identify the size and their dispersing, I believe.
From these stand point, some will be out of the question. Don't you think so?
So, I want to identify which clones must be the true ' Harefield Hall '
About photos that I showed you before, the latter 2 is very closed to ' Harefield Hall', I guess.
But others is so far from it.

Psphpsph

The only information I have of this plant it that it was deflasked in about 1990. It has no clonal name on the tag, and have no idea where it came from

The flowers are starting to fade but here is a photo of the flowers

http://home.telkomsa.net/thomasriver/images/orchids/paph%20insigne4.jpg

Gideon, That is one exquisite insigne!!!! Whatever the lineage of your plant turns out to be; It rocks!!!! Big Time!!! :Party: :Party:

That is one "Huge Honking" plant. Dagnabbit!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Dear friends,
Now, I’ll make the problems much more complicated.
At the first time, I introduced about Paph. Goliath. I was identified the parentage between insigne ‘ Harefield Hall’ x Troirus ' Amy Moore' (1920). Some of insigne ‘ Harefield Hall’ in Japan must be Goliath, we guess.
Now I’ll show you the sketch of Goliath from RHS data with insigne ‘Harefield Hall’ again.
I’m very sorry to use the sketch withought permission of RHS.
And I’ll try to put photos ……. According to Susan’s help


1) Upper left : insigne ‘Harefield Hall’
2) Upper right : Gpliath
3) ~5) insigne ‘ Harefiled Hall’ on their label.
4) But we identify they are not insigne ‘ Harefield Hall’ but some hybrids like Goliath.
Can you identify what they are?

God, please the photos appear on this board……………!

http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/insigne1.jpg


http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/goliath.jpg

http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/goliath2.jpg
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/goliath3.jpg
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/goliath4.jpg

Paphpap

Wow..... I got it! Thank you Susan. I'm so happy.

Paphpaph

Hi Gideon,
Yes, it is a excellent insigne clone.
Is it came from self cross or shib cross of insigne?
Does it have the time when the flower broom in good condition withought gamage.

Paphpaph :clap:

God, please the photos appear on this board……………!
Paphpap

Great job on the photos, Paphpaph! I know we make it a bit trickier on folks - sorry about that!

Thanks for helping, Susan!! :joy:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b190/paphiopere/Fila-esquerra-insigne.jpg
My association of orchids in Barcelona called ACAO organizes in December from the 2004 the first one Paphiopedilum insigne show on the country of Arenys de Mar. My friend and I, we are seeking any vendor to buy a real clone of Paph. insigne "Harefield Foyer". Someone knows where to buy?. During the show we to seek among all the plants presented some variation genetic among them, but not to find any variation. The leaves and the flowers were of very good quality, to double flower in some of them. (Little normal in famous). A hug
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b190/paphiopere/Paphiopedilum-2-flors-2.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b190/paphiopere/Paphiopedilum-2-flors.jpg

WOW :clap: Those are amazing!!

There are a lot of specimen sized insignes out there, aren't there?

I think I've seen that photo of the "hall of insignes" before. Pretty fabulous, and downright amazing.
Tough to search for mealies on those babies though!

I'm stunned!!! Those are amazing!!!!

Spectacular! :clap2:

Grooooaaaaaannnnn :!:

The photos are so big I can't see them! :shock:

I ask sorry to all by the size of the photos. I keep in mind for the nex time

Wow, that is amazing

Hi Gideon,
Yes, it is a excellent insigne clone.
Is it came from self cross or shib cross of insigne?
Does it have the time when the flower broom in good condition withought gamage.

Paphpaph :clap:

I have no idea if it was selfed, sibbed or crossed, I bought the plant itself. The flowers are always in excellent condition, but it has been in bloom for a long time and they are at the very end now.

Hmmm I wonder that I dare to enter the fray this late.

I troll the web quite a lot and have just come across this web page/site.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~emntee/page17.html

The Seventh picture down may interest as it's relevant to this thread.

Cheers
Stephan

Dear Stephen,
Thank you, Stephen.
Yes, the photo that you introduced is very interesting.
I put the photos concerning this discussion bellow to compare them.

http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/insig1.jpg
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/insig4.jpg
http://www.orchid.or.jp/orchid/people/tanaka/ORF/photo/7465.jpg


The 3rd photo is that you introduced.
How about do you think?
The third one is identified to be ‘Harefield Hall’?
I guess, there must be a distance between them.
Do you understand, we have so many different clones that are named ‘ Harefield Hall’
Which clone must be the true, do you think?
Paphpaph

Hey there Paph

As to which one is the "True" clone I really haven't got a clue (or a firm opinion, sorry). I do believe that most artiscally rendered drawings of early plants (including orchids) contain "some" errors simply because people drew them.

"Harefield Hall" is a varietal name. So how many plants of it were ever recorded? Is there one in any of the older gardens with appropriate documentary history or can one be tracked down.

If it was me searching, I'd go to the beginning and try to track a plant, any plant, to today, locate, sight and photograph it after verifying it's authenticity.

You've probably tried this though haven't you?

Stephan

Dear Stephen,
Thank you your opinion.

Yes, I understand well. But the artificial drawing that was recorded officially is very reliable scientifically.
Sometimes it is more reliable than photo. This is the history in natural history.
I believe the size of spots, the distribution…
Of course some difference will be dependent on temperature and another circumstance.

I have hard that the bigger plants of insigne 3N were discovered as a colony. The colony has gone and the plants were brought to Europe. The one clone is ‘ Harefield Hall ‘ and awarded FCC/RHS. There must be other clones around the world from the same colony, I guess. But they are not ‘ Harefield Hall’ FCC/RHS.

I was just browsing on the Orchids Limited web site and they are offering an insigne that has Harefield Hall as part of the parentage.

This is their photo:

http://www.orchidweb.com/images/Pinsg1L.jpg

Their web page is:

http://www.orchidweb.com/cat_dtl.asp?P_Recno=355&f_pagenumber=1&tpn=1

Perhaps they may be able to provide some information about their Harefield Hall.

I was searching over the internet looking for photos of Paph. Quasar. Somehow, I found a link to another Paph Harefield Hall. This link, I believe comes from Antec:

http://www.ladyslipper.com/683j.htm

So, I thought I'd bump this topic up again. The forum has many new members since this inquiry was last posted. Has anyone seen this?

Another thought I had about the drawing of Harefield Hall was about the age of the bloom. Perhaps the drawing was done when the flower first opened up and the dorsal sepal was still wide??? (The dorsal sepal in the drawing looked much fuller than those on the other Harefield Halls.)

I ask this question as I had two Paph. spicerianum buds open recently. When they first opened, their dorsal sepals were fuller and flatter. It took them a few days to get their dorsals to look like those of normal spicerianums.

Could this be the same situation with the insignie Harefield Hall??? Was the illustration made back in the
1880's of a newly opened flower? That would explain why the dorsal sepals look different than the dorsals in the other photographs? Yes?

Also, the colors in the 1880's illustration are so dark and rich. I wonder whether the colors may have deepened in time, and the colors of Harefield Hall, may actually be slightly lighter???

Just some thoughts.

Thanks!

The true insigne "Harefield Hall" has wide thick short leaves, 1" x 4-6"

I bought this supposed clone of Paph insigne “Harefield Hall” this week. Anyone have this clone that can make a comment whether mine is likely to be the real deal. The growths on this plant are much thicker and chunkier than my normal insigne’s. The growths are all but identical to Papuanum's comments above, so assuming he is correct, it is looking promising.

David

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/emydura/insigneHH2.jpg

Interesting thread and to add to it, this is a Pic of insigne v Harefield Hall owned by uncle dating back from the 1950's I believe and was part of a plant imported to Australia by a grower who intern bought it from a grower with the Original clone as used way back when.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t181/fyanscreek/PinsigneHHall.jpg

Amazing plant Roy.

From what I can tell, the growths look similar to mine. But maybe that's just wishful thinking.

David

David, the true Harefield Hall is about twice the size in plant growth and flower as any other insigne.
The leaves are as wide as a modern hybrid. Regardless of some of the posts, this plant grows like a weed. It multi growths, loves growing cool to cold. Water and food all the time. Squat pots are good too. Requires an open mix as well.

David, the true Harefield Hall is about twice the size in plant growth and flower as any other insigne.
The leaves are as wide as a modern hybrid. Regardless of some of the posts, this plant grows like a weed. It multi growths, loves growing cool to cold. Water and food all the time. Squat pots are good too. Requires an open mix as well.

None of the growths on mine would be that big but then none of the growths have flowered so they may still have some growing to do. The growths certainly look different to my normal insigne's though. Much chunkier.

I know someone who supposedly has the clone. He says the growths are big as well, but says it is very slow growing.

David

I think it depends on how you grow it. There are a number of years behind this plant but it always did its best in the cool weather. Back when this pic was taken, only the wealthy had heated houses. This one was grown in a greenhouse not much bigger than a large chook house for the winter and out in the shade house for the summer.

Wow nice paph!

That is a giant plant!!

Interesting read!
So the forum members having Harefield Hall (real or otherwise) are :-
- Jon in SW Ohio
- Shady Character (Mark)
- Emydura (David)
- Roy's Uncle

It would be great if they can all post pictures of their plants alongwith dimensions for comparison...

Have a question - If I find an insigne plant that fits the given description, is a triploid, here (Khasi Hills, India) today, can I call it Harefield Hall? Or is the clonal name limited to divisions of the original plant?

Interesting read!
So the forum members having Harefield Hall (real or otherwise) are :-
- Jon in SW Ohio
- Shady Character (Mark)
- Emydura (David)
- Roy's Uncle
Have a question - If I find an insigne plant that fits the given description, is a triploid, here (Khasi Hills, India) today, can I call it Harefield Hall? Or is the clonal name limited to divisions of the original plant?

Mang, the plant I posted was eventually divided up and sold off. I don't have any at all or know where any of it is now.
To my knowledge, Harefield Hall will breed & has been used, I doubt that it is a Triploid, I think the tester was a little out or didn't have the right clone to test.
If you collected a plant as you say, it would be highly unlikely that you would collect another clone that would prove to be from the same as the Harefield Hall clone from the wild. Its possible but unlikely. No other insigne to my knowledge has ever been collected from the wild to match it.

Mang, the plant I posted was eventually divided up and sold off. I don't have any at all or know where any of it is now.
To my knowledge, Harefield Hall will breed & has been used, I doubt that it is a Triploid, I think the tester was a little out or didn't have the right clone to test.
If you collected a plant as you say, it would be highly unlikely that you would collect another clone that would prove to be from the same as the Harefield Hall clone from the wild. Its possible but unlikely. No other insigne to my knowledge has ever been collected from the wild to match it.

According to Harold Koopowitz there was an even larger (though paler) insigne ('R. H. Measures') collected but this seems to have died out. Harold Koopowitz also says that the Harefield Hall clone has proven to be triploid and a reluctant breeder. It may be responsible for the reduced fertility in some of the complex hybrids.

Mang - my plant is identical to Papuanum comments -

"The true insigne "Harefield Hall" has wide thick short leaves, 1" x 4-6"

I'll be sure to post a photo whenever it flowers.

David

Mang, the plant I posted was eventually divided up and sold off. I don't have any at all or know where any of it is now.
To my knowledge, Harefield Hall will breed & has been used, I doubt that it is a Triploid, I think the tester was a little out or didn't have the right clone to test.
......

It's sad! Thought that you had a piece of the plant.
I'm confused wrt your comment abt Harefield Hall's ploidy - it contradicts what David quotes below.

According to Harold Koopowitz there was an even larger (though paler) insigne ('R. H. Measures') collected but this seems to have died out. Harold Koopowitz also says that the Harefield Hall clone has proven to be triploid and a reluctant breeder. It may be responsible for the reduced fertility in some of the complex hybrids.

Mang - my plant is identical to Papuanum comments -

"The true insigne "Harefield Hall" has wide thick short leaves, 1" x 4-6"

I'll be sure to post a photo whenever it flowers.

David

Thanks for the info David

[QUOTE=Mang;171802]It's sad! Thought that you had a piece of the plant.
I'm confused wrt your comment abt Harefield Hall's ploidy - it contradicts what David quotes below.


Mang, I know it does and the description of P.insigne V Harefield Halls is TOTALLY wrong.
I have seen this plant here in Australia for the past 50 years, I grew up with it in collections of family, friends & shows. No way is it as the description given by Papuanum, sorry.
The ploidy theory could be valid and I'll accept that. The RH Measures clone has not surfaced anywhere that I know of over the years.

[QUOTE=Mang;171802]It's sad! Thought that you had a piece of the plant.
I'm confused wrt your comment abt Harefield Hall's ploidy - it contradicts what David quotes below.


Mang, I know it does and the description of P.insigne V Harefield Halls is TOTALLY wrong.
I have seen this plant here in Australia for the past 50 years, I grew up with it in collections of family, friends & shows. No way is it as the description given by Papuanum, sorry.
The ploidy theory could be valid and I'll accept that. The RH Measures clone has not surfaced anywhere that I know of over the years.

I accept what you say Roy. Someone else who has the clone told me the same thing. So I think Papuanum has got it wrong. None of the growths on mine are mature so they may get larger. Growth size is a dodgey characteristic anyway. I have bought a lot of divisions off John Robertson. None of my followup growths come close to matching the size of his. Different conditions affect the size of growths.

I think a lot of plants have been sold spuriously as "Harefield Hall" which has added to the confusion. Hopefully mine is not one of them. Until I flower it I won't know.

David

Thank you both Roy & David for the clarifications.
At least the ploidy issue is clear now.