I mentioned yesterday that I was doing an experiment with phals. Here are two pictures.

Phal in bark mix:
http://www.msu.edu/~halgren/Pictures/phal-in-bark.jpg
Yes, it needs to be repotted. But it looks pretty much like a lot of my phals did (awful) before I repotted them this spring (late april, early may). Picture taken last night.

Here is a phal potted in a "mud" mix. This is peat, coco-peat, charcoal, and perlite.
http://www.msu.edu/~halgren/Pictures/Phal-in-mud.jpg
Note the top leaf. The rest of the plant was 'pre-mud'. Picture also taken last night.

Anyway, I could take a zillion pictures and they all say the same thing. The whole bench looks like this. I really hope the mud works in the winter...

Wow! What a difference a little mud makes, huh?
Impressive!

How do you water them? Does that make sense? How do you know when to water them? or How do you insure they don't stay to wet?

I've heard the results from HP (is that what your using HP?) are increadible. I've always nervous about using it. I resisted using spag until last month until I put a donzen or so paphs in it. I would definatly put some phals in soil if I know a bit more about the watering.

Other questions about it include, how often do you repot? Do you know the pH of the media? Is it like S/H where the old roots that arn't used to the extra moisture, die and new roots grow to replace them?

Sorry about all the questions, I have a bunch of stem props that will be ready to deflask in october. I have 6 of the exact same cross and would love to do an experiment: 2 in bark, 2 in spag/perlite and 2 in HP. Salu Peoker is the hybrind incase your curious.

Kyle

How do you water them? Does that make sense? How do you know when to water them? or How do you insure they don't stay to wet?

I've heard the results from HP (is that what your using HP?) are increadible. I've always nervous about using it. I resisted using spag until last month until I put a donzen or so paphs in it. I would definatly put some phals in soil if I know a bit more about the watering.

Other questions about it include, how often do you repot? Do you know the pH of the media? Is it like S/H where the old roots that arn't used to the extra moisture, die and new roots grow to replace them?

Sorry about all the questions, I have a bunch of stem props that will be ready to deflask in october. I have 6 of the exact same cross and would love to do an experiment: 2 in bark, 2 in spag/perlite and 2 in HP. Salu Peoker is the hybrind incase your curious.

Kyle

I would definitely do the experiment yourself, never trust anybody's fancy new technique on all your plants at once. That is suicide.

Most of this is covered in an article a friend and I wrote a long time ago, which I think is still available here: http://www.msu.edu/user/harveyb/mud.htm

I had gotten away from using mud until recently, I could never bring myself to try it on paphs, and that was mainly what I grew (phals under lights became tedious to me). But, I have phals now... Dick Wells (Hilltop) swears by this mix for everything, paphs, phrags, cattleyas... So I'm doing some trials with other genera. This is not Promix HP. Dick doesn't use it any more, so I'm following his lead. I'm sure I've posted the recipe somewhere else around here. Maybe Heather can find it.

I water from the top when the surface of the medium turns light brown. Or even a little later. Although realistically, on a big bench, some will be dryer than others. So I aim for _most_ of the plants needing water, and then I water everything. If you only have a few plants, the 'weight' method is best, you can tell if it needs water from hefting the pot. Staying too wet is the major problem, although with all these people having success with semi-hydroponics, I'm not so sure it is as big a problem as we think. There aren't many things that can rot in this mix (peat and coco-peat are pretty decomposed already). But I'd still err on the side of too dry. This is why I'm worried about winter, it might take a few weeks for this to dry out under my conditions. I'll know soon enough...

We used to repot the plants in HP once a year. That is mainly because they would outgrow the pots... And the mix makes good garden amendment, by the way. Potting in this mix is almost joyful. It is really easy to use. It takes me about half the time to pot a plant in mud as in bark, and I break no roots in mud. Some people put an inch or so of styrofoam peanuts in the bottom of the pot. I don't. I hate peanuts in potting mix, hard to recycle mix. I don't know the pH of the medium. Seems to be suitable, probably a bit acidic due to the components. I'm not convinced about the 'different roots' argument. It may be true, I just am unconvinced... The roots in mud look like bark roots. But better. Whiter, firmer, less rot. If you do it right.

I'm sure I've posted the recipe somewhere else around here. Maybe Heather can find it.


What, am I the only one who can search around here? :poke: You can call me the search goddess from now on, please.


I use 4parts Scott's MetroMix with Coir, add 2parts Perlite or Spongerock and 1.5parts Charcoal. This is a good estimate of the proportions since I do it by eye and feel.
It ends up being very porous, even when just watered, and holds moisture evenly and dries evenly. It is easy to know when to water, since it turns light brown when dry and gets quite light. If plants are let dry out for a long time, some humid conditions are still present around the roots preventing bad dehydration. This has proven very beneficial when growing drier growing plants like Paph. druryi and Mexipediums. It also preforms well when constantly wet, and my Phrags love it and send roots everywhere.
I use this mix in combination with Rands Aircone Pots and rarely add drainage material...unless I am growing drier growing plants like mentioned above. It also breaks down slowly and plants have yet to show signs of unhealthy root growth when I repot them...usually after about a year. I also have a few "guinea pig" plants that haven't been repotted in roughly 2 and a half years that look quite healthy...but I did add dolomite to them once since peat gets acidic after a year or so. If you can find MetroMix with Coir, I strongly recommed trying this mix on at least one plant.

Jon

Too weird. Last night I just made up a batch that is remarkably similar to your recipe. Never used it before. I'm using the Scott's Coir on the recommendation of Dick Wells (Hilltop Orchids). I think his formula is 20 parts Scotts Coir, 8 parts seedling bark, 6 parts perlite, and 1-2 parts charcoal. I don't own any seedling bark... So I made my mix just like you did, Jon...

I'm reluctant to try it on my paphs, but I was going to repot all of my stupid phalaenopsis in it. Hopefully I'll get most of them done tonight. Hopefully I can sell, trade, or give most of the darn things away after I get them repotted (I inherited them with the greenhouse). Perhaps I'll try it on a few paphs, as well. I don't have aircone pots, just the standard SVD (Square Very Deep) ones. I think it should work, at least for 2.25 and 3.5" pots.

I do have three more unopened bags (the big ones) of Scotts Coir, and can make up more mix if anybody wants to try a hobby sized bag or two.

I'm pretty sure I won't be able to find MetroMix with Coir in Canada. What else can I substitute? HP you said won't work, Do you know whats in BX?

Or I could make my own MetroMix with Coir, do you have estmates of the ratios? I'm assuming that its a mix of peat, coir and perlite with a surfactant.

Kyle

After looking on line, I see a lot of different types of MetroMix with Coir. What one did you use? The choices are on this page

http://www.sungro.com/products_displayProProduct.php?product_id=121&brand_id=17

Kyle

Rob, I would like to echo that the search goddess :poke: said. That is very impressive growth you have with that phal in mud. Did the plant take to it right away, or was there a noticeable adjustment period.
I was also curious if you had any phals in semi-hydro to compare with the mud results.

After looking on line, I see a lot of different types of MetroMix with Coir. What one did you use? The choices are on this page

http://www.sungro.com/products_displayProProduct.php?product_id=121&brand_id=17

Kyle

It is 360 with Coir. Although Promix HP does work, I used it for several years (a long time ago...).

Thank you Heather for saving me from writing that again.
I use the MetroMix 380 with coir, and get it from a garden supply company in Xenia, OH...can't remember the name off hand.

I have good luck with the "mud", but you MUST make sure the plant is allowed to dry out some what between waterings.
And, as always, never convert your whole collection over to a new mix without experimenting for a year or two on some "guinea pigs"...as said above that WOULD be suicide.

Dick Wells uses the same mix, only he adds medium bark to it. I don't do this because the bark makes the mix go sour much quicker in my experience...but his collection still looks amazing so it's just a matter of personal preference. His open house is coming up on Aug. 13 and I will see him then if anyone has any questions for him.

Jon

Rob, I would like to echo that the search goddess :poke: said. That is very impressive growth you have with that phal in mud. Did the plant take to it right away, or was there a noticeable adjustment period.
I was also curious if you had any phals in semi-hydro to compare with the mud results.

The plants were dying to be repotted (literally...). They've only been in the mud since late april, maybe May. So it couldn't have taken too long. It isn't just that phal, there is a whole bench (at least a hundred plants) in the mud, and almost all of them are greatly improved. I might have seen some improvement by just putting them in fresh bark mix. But I've never had much luck with phals in bark.

I haven't tried phals in semihydro. Didn't have enough rocks. The phrags in semihydro (about 20 plants) are struggling though, after about 7 months. I think they are starting to establish. That was prime-agra, and I potted in December or so. I'm not entirely pleased with the results there, although I really want to be happy with it. I like the idea of semihydro. I'm also trying an expanded clay that I found at the landscape yard (much cheaper) as well as an expanded slate called 'perma-till' (I got a bag for free). Too early to tell how those are doing.

I did put a couple phals in baskets with sphag, those look really good.

I've put a few phrags in mud, and a few cycnoches. I'm not as happy with the results on the cycnoches (they seem to be doing less well than the ones potted in moss). I'll have to unpot a few phrags to see what is going on with them. Maybe I'll do that tonight.

Thank you Heather for saving me from writing that again.
I use the MetroMix 380 with coir, and get it from a garden supply company in Xenia, OH...can't remember the name off hand.

I have good luck with the "mud", but you MUST make sure the plant is allowed to dry out some what between waterings.
And, as always, never convert your whole collection over to a new mix without experimenting for a year or two on some "guinea pigs"...as said above that WOULD be suicide.

Dick Wells uses the same mix, only he adds medium bark to it. I don't do this because the bark makes the mix go sour much quicker in my experience...but his collection still looks amazing so it's just a matter of personal preference. His open house is coming up on Aug. 13 and I will see him then if anyone has any questions for him.

Jon

380? I'll have to check my bags again. Maybe that is what I'm using instead of 360. They should make their numbers more distinct.

Ask Dick why he puts bark in the mix. I haven't seen him since he gave me the recipe. There must be some logic to it, but bark scares the heck out of me in a peat mix.

D'Oh, now I have to check when I get home. Second guessing my memory about that number...wish they would make it more distinct.
I'll ask Dick when I see him, I can't remember what he said last time.

Jon