Dear Phragmipedium-friends,
very often you can find in trade or in the collections plants named Phragmipedium caudatum 'Sanderae'. But this name was never used in an official description. So it is only a tradename, nothing more.
The problem is also that very different clones was labeled as sanderae. pale or greenish clones or sometimes typical caudatum.
Now I am interesting for the real differences. Are the differences so great that a description as a variety or form would be necessary.
Perhaps some owner of these clones could show their plants here for clearing my question.

For this time best greetings from the rainy Bavaria

Olaf

Good morning Olaf,

Here is a photo of Pete's caudatum var. sanderae. I believe he has others as well that may not be on the forum yet.

http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35&highlight=caudatum

I have one as well, but it is years away from blooming I'm afraid.

Perhaps maybe some day mine will bloom. For now I'd be happy if it just grew roots. It's been nearly two years without them but has nice leaves. It came from an importer who has had much legal trouble.

...very often you can find in trade or in the collections plants named Phragmipedium caudatum 'Sanderae'. But this name was never used in an official description. So it is only a tradename, nothing more...
Olaf,

I seem to remember that in one of your articles in 'Die Orchidee' concerning Phragmipediums you mentioned that there is a desciption of an entity by the name Phrag. caudatum var. albertianum which, if I understood your text correctly, is synonymous with the horticultural Phrag. caudatum var. sanderae. I can't remember exactly which text. I will have to look that up.
However after reading your question, I guess I missunderstood that part of the article.

MfG,

Rob Zuiderwijk

Dear Rob,
the var. or better forma albertianum if Phrag. caudatum has a sulfuric yellow dorsal sepal and was described officially in Lindenia. You can find the plate in Lindenia IV p. 63.
I wrote about in The Orchid Digest, but stated also that there is in trade another form as sanderae perhaps with greenish or a paler colour. But it is not the same.

With best greetings

Olaf

Perhaps maybe some day mine will bloom. For now I'd be happy if it just grew roots. It's been nearly two years without them but has nice leaves. It came from an importer who has had much legal trouble.

Shady - what's your's potted in? Just curious. Mine came w/ roots, but it also has a TON of nice fresh ones growing. It is in a seedling bark mix, of all things. My other caudatum types are all in CHC/Diatomite/Char./Perl. (what most of my paphs are in. Not sure why this caudatum got different treatment, except that it is a seedling and not a pretty mature plant.)

I've got it in a nest of NZ sphag. I threw it outside the other day so it could get better light. It was in the Orquarium right next to the fogger. Stupid plant. :mad:

Stupid plant. :mad:

I hear you - I just had to lecture a few myself. Darned boring new leaves. :?

Dear Rob,
the var. or better forma albertianum if Phrag. caudatum has a sulfuric yellow dorsal sepal and was described officially in Lindenia. You can find the plate in Lindenia IV p. 63.
I wrote about in The Orchid Digest, but stated also that there is in trade another form as sanderae perhaps with greenish or a paler colour. But it is not the same.

With best greetings

Olaf

Dear Olaf,

Thank you very much for the explaination.

Rob Zuiderwijk

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a42/og48/caudatumAlbertianum-pl.jpg

Now I want try to show the picture of Phrag. caudatum forma albertinum. So you can imagine how beautiful it would be. But this is oly a plate, I have never seen a real plant like this.

Wizth best greetings

Olaf

MMmmm, so lovely - just look at those petals!
I want one.

Dear Heather,
you are not alone with your wish

Olaf

That is beautiful!!! (Both the plate and the plant!)

Wow. I had never seen a picture of this variety. I think it's absolutely beautiful.

Rob Zuiderwijk

P.S.
Olaf.
I found the article which I mentioned earlier. It's the Phrag. caudatum Orchideenkartei, Seite 609-612. Beilage zu Die Orchidee 41(4) Juli/August 1990.
In there you write (and I quote): "Die einzige anerkennenswerte Varietät scheint die Varietät Albertianum mit schwefelgelben Blüten zu sein, die auch under dem Namen var. sanderae im Handel ist."
That is why I thought that albertianum is the same as sanderae.

(Sorry for butting in, I am WAY too curious!)


In there you write (and I quote): "Die einzige anerkennenswerte Varietät scheint die Varietät Albertianum mit schwefelgelben Blüten zu sein, die auch under dem Namen var. sanderae im Handel ist."
That is why I thought that albertianum is the same as sanderae.

"The only recognize-worth Varietaet seems to be the Varietaet Albertianum with sulfur-yellow blooms, which is also more under the name var. sanderae in the trade."

Dear Rob,
many thanks for the hint. But I have learned a little bit more about the genus in the last 15 years. When I wrote the article I was a beginner in the editorial team of Die Orchidee and also more a beginner in the genus Phragmipedium.
Later on I have seen different clones named var. sanderae but never a description was published because the differences were not great enough.
So I am looking for and hope to learn more about the variability of Phrag. caudatum.

Best greetings and many thanks

Olaf

(Sorry for butting in, I am WAY too curious!)

Heather,

No problem.
Maybe I should have written it also in English as not everyone on this forum speak German. Sorry.

RZu

Olaf and Rob Z.,

Since you have seen so many plants in your experience, I wondered if you could comment on the size variability within the caudatum types. Most people tell me that lindenii and especially warscewiczeanum tend to be more compact growing plants than the caudatum species. Could you tell me if you've ever come across an extremely large specimen of either, but particularly warscewiczeanum? For example a leafspan of over 20 inches?

Thank you!

(Sorry for butting in, I am WAY too curious!)


In there you write (and I quote): "Die einzige anerkennenswerte Varietät scheint die Varietät Albertianum mit schwefelgelben Blüten zu sein, die auch under dem Namen var. sanderae im Handel ist."
That is why I thought that albertianum is the same as sanderae.

"The only recognize-worth Varietaet seems to be the Varietaet Albertianum with sulfur-yellow blooms, which is also more under the name var. sanderae in the trade."

Translation:

The only meritorious variety seems to be the variety Albertianum with sulphur-yellow blossoms which is also under to the name var. sanderae in trade.

:) I collect early German stamps so I have to have a method of translating verbatim.

Translation:

The only meritorious variety seems to be the variety Albertianum with sulphur-yellow blossoms which is also under to the name var. sanderae in trade.

:)

Seemed clear enough in German.. *grin*

But the real question is, where (if anywhere) can I find one in the US?

Dear Rob,
many thanks for the hint. But I have learned a little bit more about the genus in the last 15 years. When I wrote the article I was a beginner in the editorial team of Die Orchidee and also more a beginner in the genus Phragmipedium.
Later on I have seen different clones named var. sanderae but never a description was published because the differences were not great enough.
So I am looking for and hope to learn more about the variability of Phrag. caudatum.

Best greetings and many thanks

Olaf

Olaf,

Of course you have learned more about the genus in the last 15 years. No argument there.
I always read with great interest your articles in Die Orchidee and learn more all the time myself. The mentioning of the entity albertianum in the Orchideenkartei was the only one I was aware of, until now. That is why I didn't know any better.

Again thank you.

All the best from The Netherlands,

Rob Zuiderwijk

I think I was motivated to respond more by wanting Olaf and Rob to be more comfortable with using German here. There's really a significant difference in the 'flavor' of words that's occasionally lost in the translation.

I think I was motivated to respond more by wanting Olaf and Rob to be more comfortable with using German here. There's really a significant difference in the 'flavor' of words that's occasionally lost in the translation.

Ok GREAT! Ernie is now the official German translator!
My work here is done. :wink:

Very interesting thread.
I had always seen caudatum v. sanderae and wondered, if that's var. sanderae then what does regular caudatum look like?
When I asked a local Phrag. "specialist" what the difference was he said sanderae gets to be a much larger plant and the flowers are a little more yellowish. I am still yet to be convinced the variety is any different than the species.

As for the albertiana...I may one day have to search all of central and south america for one of those, that thing is gorgeous!

Heather, Glen Lehr brought a warscewiczianum to a meeting here years ago that was a monster and had easily a 20+ inch leaf span. The flowers were much larger than mine as well.

Thanks for sharing, I will post photos when I bloom mine again...although I will search my archive and see if I have any pics from shows.

Jon

Heather, Glen Lehr brought a warscewiczianum to a meeting here years ago that was a monster and had easily a 20+ inch leaf span. The flowers were much larger than mine as well.

Jon

So it was in bloom and definitely, unmistakably a warsce?
Pete lost the spike on our's and so it will be a while before we know for sure what it is. He thinks it is a hybrid, I still hold out hope it is just a giant!

No mistaking it...one of the darkest colored ones I've seen as well. Also had extremely stiff upright leaves that were quite dark.

Here are some photos from shows that are up for debate:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/jonbar2/123.jpg
This one had a tag saying caudatum v. sanderae

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/jonbar2/132.jpg
This one had a tag saying caudatum

Jon

Somehow I must have missed this post. Yes, my "giant" warscewiczianum looks just like that with long narrow upright stiff leaves. All the warsces that I have seen including my other warsce are a lot smaller and more compact in nature with shorter stubbier leaves.