It is my understanding that there are 'legal' copies of this species in Europe and elsewhere. Have any hybrids been made yet? I'm not likely to see them here in the US, at least any time soon. Just wondering what some of the more obvious crosses are going to look like. X besseae, schlimii, sargentianum... that kind of thing.

Any of our overseas people care to comment on that? I imagine some of these hybrids must be blooming size by now. Or close.

In Europe are officially only seedlings, no floweringsized plants, so west wait for the flower of the Phrag. kovachii.

But there were sold also flasks with seedling of crossings coming from EWcuador.
They will need also some years more before they will come in flower. Perhaps in other parts of the world some hybrids will come in flower earlier.

Best greetings

Olaf

I have a flask of kovachii x wallisii. Other crosses have been made but are not available for release yet.

I have a flask of kovachii x wallisii. Other crosses have been made but are not available for release yet.

That would be a spectacular hybrid!

Gosh, that will be spectacular!
I really need to save some room....:?

Great!!! Kovachii x wallisii was the first thing that came to my mind if I had the resources or the expertise to make such a cross.

I will wait (not patiently) for this cross.

We look forward to seeing pictures of any hybrids when they finally bloom!

thanks

I have heard that a grower (will not reveal the name) is going to Miami, and has imported LEGAL Phrag. kovachii flasks from Ecuador. He is going to the Customs in Miami, and picking up the flasks. If they are allowed in, I assume that Phrag. kovachii will be legal in the US, if proper documents are filed (his import may make it easier for the rest of us). That means, we have about 6-7 years to go for a legal flowering Phrag. kovahii. Some of us have it illegally in the US, and some of us are impatient, but are waiting it out. I am not sure if blooming sized plants will be available within 6 years, possibly larger seedlings. I am unaware how Phrag. besseae went here in the US, did flasks ONLY come in, or did blooming sized plants soon follow those flasks?

I am really unaware of the details for this importation of Phrag. kovachii, it may be a lie, but I will let you all know what the result is, and will look for proof..... a copy of the CITES import and export permit would be liked!

ttyl,
-PM

There are already a number of commercial growers in the U.S. who have imported flasks of Phrag. kovachii with the proper phytosanitary and CITIES documentation. The first legal release of flasks was at the WOC in Dijon.

Yep, I know several folks who have legally imported kov. flasks.

I have not yet heard about the importation of legal Phrag. kovachii flasks yet..... I was almost sure this grower would be the first. I knew they were offered in France at the Orchid Convention, from an Australian Orchid Buisiness, but was told that they would not be imported by certain countried, particularly the US. There are flasks coming out of Ecuador, not as much from Peru.

Plants of Phragmipedium kovachii are suddenly popping up everywhere, as I have been told numerous times. Stig Dalstrom, co-author of kovachii, had topld me villagers sold the blooming plants on roadsides and markets for $10US. I was told by an orchid collector that the populations of Phrag. kovachii are more numerous than that of most other orchid species. The wide range of coloration of the orchid is also more variable than most people know. The Phrag. kovachii comes in a HUGE array of purples and pinkish purples, and different sized pouches, and diffferent shaped petals.

I would say Phrag. kocahii is one of the most wanted orchids (at least lady slippers) in the world. That nice purple color is something that is amazing, and the size is astounding! Sig Dalstrom has done a great job painting the species (watercolors), and illustrating the type specimen. Phrag. kovachii is described in Selbyana 23; Supp. (2002). I am unsure as to why the species was classified in Section Micropetalum..... it should be the complete-opposite-um.....

ttyl,
-PM

We have had much discussion of this here.
http://www.slipperorchidforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1214&highlight=kovachii

There are a couple other related threads around here also.

I got to read the entire thread, and learned a few things. However, I saw that someone mentioned it would be wise to have plants in cultivation as the plants in the wild may be collected, I might disagree. There are soooooooooooooooooooooooo many people in Ecuador and Peru that have Phragm. kovachii in their collections. There will always be PLANTY of kovachii to go around. If it goes illegal, than peopl will just say "forget CITES", and buy plants of it anyways. I will look for some pics of the mass colonies of Phragmipedium kovachii, and will ask Stig Dlastrom if he has any pics of mass numbers. There are more Phrag. kovachii than yo can shake hundreds of sticks at..... They are found in Northern Peru, to Southern Ecuador. They are not scattered, they are colonies. The few pictures of the in situ plants of kovachii are just waifs here and there, I assume they did not take their time to find the plants. I assume there are more plants of Phagmipedium kovachii in there than any other species of Phragmipedium. Mass collecting would maybe dent the population a little. So many people have the plants, that there will aways be plants. They are not hard to grow, they can grow in cooler climates in shade, or hotter weather in sunny conditions. This might be the easiest Phrag. to grow. Another great feature about the plant is the lack of rhizome, usually found in Phragmipedium species, being minute or not. In kovachii, there are no rhizomes..... It is a very good plant, and one that people will defintley enjoy..... 20 months and counting?

ttyl,
-PM

...oh yes, as a reply to Heather a while back on that old kovachii thread, there is at least one other legal propagator of Phrag. kovahii out of Peru (at least that I know of). They want $1,000 per flask, and they ONLY ship within Australia. I am unsure as to the flasks legality in the US from them, PeruFlora I think is out of them (last time I checked).....

-PM

Hi,

I recently was browsing the web and found a website/nursery in Japan who sells legal Phrag. kovachii. They also have a page (see links below) with various clones of kovachii. I personally like the shape of the clone they call 'Tupac Amaru'.

http://www.orchids.co.jp/Catalog/6666.htm
http://www.orchids.co.jp/Catalog/666a.htm


Earlier in this thread possible kovachii-hybrids were mentioned. I would like to see a hybrid of this 'Tupac Amaru' clone with a good Ruby Slippers. Somehow I feel this would make a stuning hybrid. :!:

RZu.

I would be very suspicious of anyone offering plants of Phrag. kovachii at this time. I had to sign a form stating that I would not gift, trade or sell any seedlings/plants for a period of 21 months. You may argue the value of CITIES but please take it seriously. The list of legal importers of Phrag kovachii flasks is in the hands of the CITIES officials in the U.S. and is being closely monitored.

The seedlings in flask are very vigorous growers and I think there will be plenty of seedlings available for sale in 20 months time.

I wonder how good that signed document would hold out if you were to gift a plant or sell one..... who would be the prosecutor. The product is yours, I think you can eat it, burn it, throw it, kick it, sell it, smoke it, gift it, or do whatever you want with the plant. If there is no rule that you can't kill it, then surely you can sell it. The document would mean nothing, and a punishment would not be asessed..... there is no way in the world they can tell you what you can and cannot do, that would definitely be encroaching upon your constitutional rights..... if you are in the US.....

They really cannot do that, CITES can yell and scream all they want, but I say the document in the US mean absolutely nothing after you have purchased it fully. No way in the world.....

ttyl,
-PM

I would think a contractual agreement signed as a condition of sale can be enforced and probably would be in this instance.

Patrick, be careful before you speak in absolutes. That document could be used for a breach of contract suit. There is no need for a prosecutor because in a contract dispute between two parties, one of the parties imply sues the other. Depending on the jurisdiction, remedies could be anything from specific enforcement to punitive damages. 21 months is not an unreasonably long amount of time for such a clause.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will be the prosecutor. Making a connection between killing a plant and selling it seems like a bit of a stretch to me :?

FYI they don't need to kick and scream, they will just knock on your door and cart you away in handcuffs. If you don't think they can or will you are very naive when it comes to dealing with government officials who are on a power trip.

Your only hope will be to get Judge Judy on one of her better days.

Big Brother is watching. :wink:

I got to read the entire thread, and learned a few things. However, I saw that someone mentioned it would be wise to have plants in cultivation as the plants in the wild may be collected, I might disagree. There are soooooooooooooooooooooooo many people in Ecuador and Peru that have Phragm. kovachii in their collections. There will always be PLANTY of kovachii to go around. If it goes illegal, than peopl will just say "forget CITES", and buy plants of it anyways. I will look for some pics of the mass colonies of Phragmipedium kovachii, and will ask Stig Dlastrom if he has any pics of mass numbers. There are more Phrag. kovachii than yo can shake hundreds of sticks at..... They are found in Northern Peru, to Southern Ecuador. They are not scattered, they are colonies. The few pictures of the in situ plants of kovachii are just waifs here and there, I assume they did not take their time to find the plants. I assume there are more plants of Phagmipedium kovachii in there than any other species of Phragmipedium. Mass collecting would maybe dent the population a little. So many people have the plants, that there will aways be plants. They are not hard to grow, they can grow in cooler climates in shade, or hotter weather in sunny conditions. This might be the easiest Phrag. to grow. Another great feature about the plant is the lack of rhizome, usually found in Phragmipedium species, being minute or not. In kovachii, there are no rhizomes..... It is a very good plant, and one that people will defintley enjoy..... 20 months and counting?

ttyl,
-PM

Forgive my ignorance...

How the heck can something as spectacular and common as you say it is, take so long to be discovered. I can certainly appreciate subtle differences in species like Paph going unnoticed but not this one for so long in an economically challenged country.

As to "always be plenty to go around" we said the same thing about passenger pigeons and Carolina parakeets. I believe CITES and Peru will only let small quantities legally trickle out into the market in order to make as much money as possible from them.
Pessimism comes with age I guess but I've got more than my fair share.

Rumors of colonies in Ecuador have been started to explain the availability of that species in this country. That's all...

Ernie, I think that the government of Peru is acting very wisely in trying to get plants of this species into as wide a distribution as possible. That is the only way the remaining population in the wild will be reasonably secure. I am a hobby grower and I had no problems in buying 4 large flasks. While the flasks are expensive, I calculate the seedlings are approminately 10.00 U.S. each. I don't think that is out of line for something with this much interest and hopefully breeding potential.

I think if anyone wanted to obtain a flask that the process would be relatively easy.

Please be advised that Phrag kovachii is listed in Appendix 1 of the CITES Convention of which the U.S. is a signatory. Just be patient and there will be lots of 'legal' seedlings available in the not too distant future.

I agree with ernie, If this spectacular plant is as common as you say, with colonies all over, why did it take so long to be discovered?

Is there any proof that there are plants in Ecuador? Is the Ecuador government giving CITIES Documents to the nurseries in ecuador? Wouldn't those nurseries have to prove that the seeds weren't collected from the wild or from seized plants? Peruflora has legally collected wild plants, so all the flasks they produce are legal. Does the same go for the ecudorian nurseries? Just curious.

Also, how big were the plants in flask, consettbay? On that japaneses site, they looked small, and it looked like they had replated them? Are the plants shipped ready to be deflasked? How were they sent to you? Were the flaskes jumbled?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm curious about this plant.

Kyle

Kyle,
The plants in the flasks were on the small side but they are growing very well. I estimate that I will be deflasking in Oct/Nov of this year. The flasks were hand delivered to me at the Newbury Orchid Show in the U.K. by Manolo Arias and were in perfect condition. I was more than pleased.

The flasks have to be kept at a maximum temperature of 20 degrees C.

It would be fair to ask why it took the parvisepalum species so long to be discovered. Basically it took as long as it took :roll:

It would be fair to ask why it took the parvisepalum species so long to be discovered. Basically it took as long as it took :roll:

That is a fair question but I didn't hear an assertion that there were huge colonies of them all over the place. Even if there were, I doubt the prevailing governments would allow botanical explorers to wander all over the place. There are still huge trust issues between the east and the west and as things relax, I'm hoping we'll see more discoveries like that.

How the heck can something as spectacular and common as you say it is, take so long to be discovered. I can certainly appreciate subtle differences in species like Paph going unnoticed but not this one for so long in an economically challenged country..

Ernie,

Thank you for expressing my exact sentiments about this topic. This Phrag species is just so obvious. I do not understand why it was not discovered long ago if it was so prolific. I would imagine that huge colonies, as those described, would take a long time to establish.

I would love to see photos of colonies!

How the heck can something as spectacular and common as you say it is, take so long to be discovered. I can certainly appreciate subtle differences in species like Paph going unnoticed but not this one for so long in an economically challenged country..

Ernie,

Thank you for expressing my exact sentiments about this topic. This Phrag species is just so obvious. I do not understand why it was not discovered long ago if it was so prolific. I would imagine that huge colonies, as those described, would take a long time to establish.

I would love to see photos of colonies!

That's like sanderianum... One place on the Fire Mountain has several hundreds plants scattered on the area, and many others places have colonies ranging from 10 to 35 plants at most. Yet, people extended their claim to "many colonies with thousands of plants".

By that way, most of them have very, very short petals around 1'. Long petalled sanderianums are exceedingly rare compared to all the plants offered, most mature plants on salre right now are of the short-petalled type.

That's like sanderianum... One place on the Fire Mountain has several hundreds plants scattered on the area, and many others places have colonies ranging from 10 to 35 plants at most. Yet, people extended their claim to "many colonies with thousands of plants".

By that way, most of them have very, very short petals around 1'. Long petalled sanderianums are exceedingly rare compared to all the plants offered, most mature plants on salre right now are of the short-petalled type.

Thanks, papuanum,

I thought that sanderianum was extinct in the wild. At least, that was what I was led to believe, or read somewhere. (Yup, I'm gullible.) I like your middle-of-the-road approach that kovacci, like sanderianum, is not extinct, but does not exist in nature as prolifically as others would like us to believe. This makes sense.

PS: I have a very expensive baby sand. It will take years & years & years for it to bloom. After all that work, I hope that bugger has long petals!! :mad:

I thought that sanderianum was extinct in the wild. At least, that was what I was led to believe, or read somewhere. (Yup, I'm gullible.) I like your middle-of-the-road approach that kovacci, like sanderianum, is not extinct, but does not exist in nature as prolifically as others would like us to believe. This makes sense.

PS: I have a very expensive baby sand. It will take years & years & years for it to bloom. After all that work, I hope that bugger has long petals!! :mad:

There are still plenty of sanderianum and rothschildianum in the wild, but many are of poor flower quality. Sanderianum is actually quite common, long-petalled ones are actually very rare... same for rothschildianum. Lowquality are very common, high quality are very scarce.

Papuanum,
You mentioned that you consider short-petalled sanderianums to have petals of approximately 1 foot. I am curious as to what is the length of the longest petalled sanderianum that you have seen or read about.

I have never heard of short petalled sanderianums, so can't comment on that but the longest petalled sanderianum ever recorded in the Guiness Book of World record is 3' in length and the same plant flowered later with even longer petals. The plant is owned by Zephyrus Orchids and is listed in the Guinness Book. They were also selling the seedlings for $20,000.00 each, the last time I checked. LINK (http://www.zephyrusorchids.com/worldrecord.html)

Does anyone here speak Japanese?
i would like to see how much these flasks are going for.

First,

Yes, at first, plants being "found" in EC were to explain plants in that country. Then, by amazement, they actually did find a few colonies of plants there near the border, where the Peru plants were found.....

As for the discovery, the plant has been known for some years now, I knew about kovachii about a month or two before it was brought in. It takes so long to get a permit to get a plant even in that country. The plant, as I have been told, has been known since 1999, where a grower in TX illegally brought a plant in, and was later fined and arrested for having the plant after kovachii was desscribed.

Rarity is not a problem for this species, there are tons of these plants. You all will have to go see the colonies yourselves. If Olaf reads this, perhaps he knows a little about the distribution and rarity..... Plants may have not been found or have been overloooked as Phrag. longifolium, as someone in this forum said about the leaves.....

The same way with all other ladyslippers, especially Pariv. Paphiopedilums. The Caudatum Phragmipediums are the ones that are not well looked at, as they are not popular, and all the species differ JUST slightly..... many species have been described from one looking species..... Perhaps mutations are the cause.....

As for the contract, it is a breach of contract, and selling is a breach of duty. I do not think this breach of duty will amount to anything in the courts, it will be thrown out. The involvement of CITES or the USF&WS would most likely not happen, as they really have nothing to do with the breach of contract between two citizens. If they were sold by the government, then CITES and USF&WS will be involved. I believe that a defense for the breacher would be it is his, ownde outright, and cannot tell me what I can and cannot do with it, as long it is within the guidlines of the law. As I said, and was told too extreme, if you can kill it, then you can do ANYTHING you want with it. We are not talking about animals, there is no plant abuse, so there would be no crime. I believe there is a limit in which CITES and USF&WS can come in, and that is not the time. I do not think it was directed by CITES or USF&WS to not sell again, as the propagators would not be able to sell. This contract is most likely for the good of the buisiness that sold it to you, as they want to have the monopoly on the plants at this time, and do not want competition, so they make up a contract that really does not mean much. It is going to be the equivelant of an injury waiver and such, which means NOTHING!

ttyal,
-PM

Patrick, I would advise you to not keep going on and on about breaching contracts, court matters, CITES and growing illegal plants openly here on the forum. This is a "public" forum and you never know who is reading every word you type here, we just don't want to get into any kind of trouble here. Thanks!

Someone brought it in in '99 and got arrested?

No offense to any of our growers here who got their start at a young age (Lien and Jon come to mind!) But, Patrick, I have to say, you really claim to know great deal for someone who is only 16 years old!

Micheal Kovach was given two years probation and fined 1000 dollars.
Marie Selby Botanical gardens was fined 5000 dollars and officials were given three years probation for not reporting that Mr. Kovach had brough this new species to them for identication which they were required to do.

IMHO Mr. Kovach got off this lightly because he claimed ignorance of the CITIES requirements. I seriously doubt that the next individual who has illegal possession of this species will get off this lightly.

Micheal Kovach was given two years probation and fined 1000 dollars.
Marie Selby Botanical gardens was fined 5000 dollars and officials were given three years probation for not reporting that Mr. Kovach had brough this new species to them for identication which they were required to do.

IMHO Mr. Kovach got off this lightly because he claimed ignorance of the CITIES requirements. I seriously doubt that the next individual who has illegal possession of this species will get off this lightly.

That begs the follow up question...If a species is undescribed/unknown, is it automatically illegal to cross borders with it under CITES?

The story I heard, and it could be completely wrong but here is anyways, goes something like this:

Kovach found the orchid at a road side stand and smuggled it into the US. That wasn't completly illeagal becasue as a undiscribed plant it wasn't on Appendix I. Technically it wasn't a phrag, yet. He, however did not get the neccessary phytos. He brought it to Selbys and they identified it and divided it. One piece stayed in the US and the larger piece was smuggled back to Peru. That action got kovach in hot water. The texan your refering to is probably George Norris. He got into trouble for smugling plants and is currently in jail, but i think it happend in 2003 not 1999.

Mahon, I would like to learn more about the populations in Ecuador. Can you PM me the contact info for some people who can substantiat your claims? And do you or, maybe, Steve T know if Ecuador is granting export permits for kovachii flasks?

Is anyone on the list going to the Andean Orchid Conference? They have a couple of speakers on Kovachii.

Kyle

Yes it is illegal to remove the plant from the country of origin even for identification purposes without proper phytosanitary and CITES documentation from the country of origin. All paphs and phrags are on Appendix 1 of the CITES convention - the same as Panda bears!!!!!

Appendix 1 is the highest classification under CITES- I would be surprised if Forums such as this are not occasionally monitored.

The orginal charge against Mr. Kovach was felony smuggling!!!

An entire plant is not required for identification. I think if he had only brought a flower to M.S. Botanical gardens it would not have caused so much aggravation to all involved.

Here is a little info from the Andean Orchid Conference page. Its the abstrct for one of the speakers:

Phragmipedium kovachii: Distribution, ecology, cultivation, and hybridizing

Alfredo Manrique

Centro de JardinerÃ*a Manrique, Club Peruano de OrquÃ*deas, Lima, PERU (e-mail: Cjmgard@terra.com.pe)

Since its discovery in 2002, six more habitats of Phragmipedium kovachii have been discovered in Region San Martin and Region Amazonas in northern Peru, all in a broad valley circled by mountains 9,000 feet high. Plants grow mostly on cliffs, surrounded by tall grasses with a natural mulch of thick living moss, and experience warm days, cool nights, and high humidity from late afternoon to sunrise. All of the springs that run down through that particular area have low levels of dissolved salts.

Studies performed in the habitats showed us how to grow successfully the five plants of P. kovachii plants that the Peruvian government allowed us to collect and cultivate for commercial purposes. Since their collection in May 2003, all plants have been grown in Lima in intermediate temperatures, high light, and a coarse growing medium rich in granite gravel. Strong ventilation is the key factor in preventing pest infestations and diseases. There were two flowering seasons, one in fall and one in spring, and one plant produced four inflorescences, each bearing two flower buds. Flowers take about three months to develop, and the capsule matures in three months after pollination. Hybridizing with P. besseae and other species of the genus has been successful.

I was under the impression that Norris was NOT smuggling kovachii, at least that is what was indicated at the time on other various online sites.

And YES, I am sure that sites like these and EMAILS (which is what got Norris caught) are being monitored, so..

According to Orchid Digest 68(4) (2004), Manuel Arias Silva, a Peruvian national was sentenced to 21 months in prison plus 3 years supervised release, and fined $5,000.
According to Orchid Digest 69(1) (2005), George Norris of Spring, Texas, was sentenced to 17 months in prison plus 2 years probation.


--Stephen

Norris was not involved with illegal importation of Phrag kovachii but rather in an attempt to import other phrags into the U.S. without proper documentation. The individual who shipped the plants to Mr. Norris mislabelled, was fined 250,000U.S. and given a prison term of 5 years! I believe he is still on the run.

BTW the executive director and eight board members of the M.S. Botanical Gdns were forced to resign over the kovachii screw up.

Fascinating stuff but the bottom line is don't play cute with government officials.

Fascinating stuff but the bottom line is don't play cute with government officials.

Especially now w/ the new privacy act.

Well said, Heather!

The Patriot Act is very broad in its language and grants federal agencies extensive powers and investigative authority.

Don't mess with Feds! I respect them. (Personally, considering their budgetary constraints, I wish they would focus more on terrorists, rather than orchid outlaws as that is what the Act was intended for, but that is just IMHO.)

George Norris got caught, in part, because he ticked off (to be polite) the wrong people...anyone who knows George knows that his bark is more obnoxious than his bite....but he was reported by a former customer and, supposedly, a well known orchid authority....at first, his computer was confiscated, his property turned upside down...and ultimately, they left him alone...but then an email was intercepted in which he advised a well known Peruvian importer to send off a shipment of phrags labelled as something common...Maxillaria, I think.....and to send them to a port that he considered more lax in their inspections. That nailed him. The phrags were not rare...I think they were mostly pearcei...they had been propagated, but the crime was in the deliberate instructions for mislabelling...Yes, this was an illegal act...no question about that....but when it came to trial, the judge did not know the relative difference in criminality between mislabelling pearcei's for expediency and smuggling in kovachii's...this was a violation involving the smuggling of CITES App. 1 plants....and, with the kovachii debacle fresh in mind, and George refusing to incriminate other importers to make a deal, he got screwed with a sentence far too draconian for a 65 year old first time offender in poor health. The moral of this is that email is at least capable of being watched...we must all assume that it is watched. Everyone must be very careful of what they say in their emails...VERY CAREFUL. Please don't think that because your collection has a few Maudiae paphs and some besseae hybrids that you are beyond consideration...yes, you may have nothing to ultimately lose, but do you want the hassle of an investigation? Do you want to have to answer questions about other growers? A few years ago my oldest son did some research on paph DNA for a college project....this was at the NY Botanic Garden. While there, he got an earful about how the government was investigating growers of illegal slippers....and also learned that the government was soon going to allow the release of some vietnamense...sure enough, a few years later, came the release of the Antec flasks. I'm rambling too much....but again, we must all realize that email, even when personal, is, while not quite a public document, certainly not the private document we all would like to think it is. Take care, Eric

Thanks Eric!

Yes, that is a good, succinct telling of the story I'd heard.
I knew I coulnd't pull off a good telling of it.

Bottom line? Watch it, folks! :D

A little late for a reply, as I have been slammed with McD's work and greenhouse work.....

As for the contract, there is a breach of contract when you do sell or give the seedlings away within those 21 months of the contract. The thing that will limit this contract is the ability for a representative from Peruflora to come to the US and sue you for possible punitive damages. The CITES and USF&WS would not at all be involved in this action, as they are irrelevant to the case. There is no current CITES or USF&WS limitations put on THOSE specific plants. Your defense may include my extreme example, that you can do ANYTHING with the plants LEGALLY, except seel or give them away. Though Peruflora has every right to try and establish a monopoly, a monopoly can really only be established by the local government. Peruflora is not the only one in flasked kovachii, therefore they cannot attempt to establish their empire or monopoly on the plants. If it were to be modified by an individual with man-made material (not flasking, that is irrelavant), then they can patent the seedlings and flasks, and then have a monopoly. I am sorry, I have nothing against Peruflora, but their contract will mean nothing-do nothing. It is the equivelant of a waiver. THough 21 months is not a really long time, you can do whatever you wish with the plants within guidlines of the law. Peruflora is not government, and cannot produce guidlines or law. They can make a contract, but that would be a civil action, and not involve CITES or USF&WS, as they are not involved with the breach of contract, and breach of duty. The court will rule in your favor if you bring up my extremist defense, there are no laws to protect plants in cultivation, no plant abuse, no plant murder, no "slave" plants, nothing.....

ttyal,
-PM

I will soon have the same problem with my new species of Paphiopedilum, so I am ready to meet new CITES freinds (NOTE: No need to check here and waste time and money, I am legal on this one guys! Sorry for the disappointment, I will contact Cribb and Luer if I see any of your faces, so don't even try and pull a fast one on me!)......

ttyal, and have a great day,
-PM

Patrick, Geee, I'm having a great day! Thanks! You do seem to have a habit of encouraging discussion, don't you?

However, some of this discussion you encourage may not be constructive to this forum.

It's a free forum. This is only my personal opinion. I am OK with that.

I am only a member of this forum but I really enjoy this forum as it is meant for the simple enjoyment of growing lovely slippers between friends who can share their expertise in this Hobby. Yup, I said Hobby!!! I appreciate your commentaries, but I feel I must caution you about discussing potential illegal Paphs entering the USA and challenging CITES when you do it. I also question your implications of what "connections" that you may have in the "biz" to get it done.

Also this "in the biz" knowledge like name dropping and contacting "Cribb and Luer if I see any of your faces," is really not appropriate on this forum.

Sorry Heather & Pete, I took the bait and stepped in.

best!

Patrick -
Your last post was deleted because you have been warned at least three times previously about overstepping.
You didn't take the hint.

For now, Susan's message will remain as a response, so forgive the out of context nature.

If anyone has any issues with this, please feel free to contact me. We wish to keep this place safe and peaceful and above all, knowledgeable! The vast majority of posts are in this spirit!!! Thank you all for your participation!

Heather & Pete,

I'm OK with that. In fact you can delete my entire response if you deem it appropriate.

I trust your judgement.

I would think that wallissii x kovachii would produce purple basset hounds, with long droopy ears and big sad eyes. :-dance:

I would think that wallissii x kovachii would produce purple basset hounds, with long droopy ears and big sad eyes. :-dance:

Sweet! Thanks for getting this thread off & running again. (I hope)!

Patrick, I'm sorry I responded to your post the way I did. You are wayyy to smart to be stifiled. Just keep it legal. :D

So, who has CITES (ACCEPTED by the USFWS of the USA) for Phragmipedium kovachii? And its hybrids (which also, unfortunately, falll under the same legality issue, such as hybrids of Paph hangianum)? It would be VERY INTERESTING if someone would post a JPG of their CITES documentation from the UNITED STATES -- remembering that Vietnam can produce as many CITES export permits as they like, but then they still must be accepted by the US authorities....... The plants from Dijon may not have been legally imported to the US, even if in flask, if US CITES for kovachii importation does not exist.

Interested in following this issue, yours truly,

Beskriver.

Welcome to the forum Beskriver

It's always intrigued me how a country can preach conservation on the one hand and destroy what could be a large percentage of what's left of a near extinct species on the other simply because of insufficient documentation.

So where do you stand then? :poke:

BTW, I'm from Australia and investigating the possibility of importing dry seed for my own personal use. It looks like I may be able to do it - No documentation required.

Cheers
Stephan

So, who has CITES (ACCEPTED by the USFWS of the USA) for Phragmipedium kovachii? And its hybrids (which also, unfortunately, falll under the same legality issue, such as hybrids of Paph hangianum)? It would be VERY INTERESTING if someone would post a JPG of their CITES documentation from the UNITED STATES -- remembering that Vietnam can produce as many CITES export permits as they like, but then they still must be accepted by the US authorities....... The plants from Dijon may not have been legally imported to the US, even if in flask, if US CITES for kovachii importation does not exist.

Interested in following this issue, yours truly,

Beskriver.

I think you'll find supporting information in the CITES poll thread in the Orchid Discussion forum. It's not as simple as having a CITES import ticket in all cases.