I was thinking...(I know dangerous) I find it very hard to find alot of really good old hybrids. Do you guys think there is a market for alot of older hybrids if I was to use alot of newer species to create better growing ones here. Using Stephan's Paph Vexillarium as a point. Google came up with only 5 sites. None of them are sales websites. Of course, I would focus on some fairrieanum hybrids first... Just wanted to see what the OG's thought about a small venture like this. It seems to be a relatively inexpensive(as far as orchids go) project. Thanks! Is there a niche for this kind of venture?

I know that Peter (Greenpaph) has a few older hybrids and I believe he has and is redoing some of the older crosses. I'm sure he will comment.

I was thinking...(I know dangerous) I find it very hard to find alot of really good old hybrids. Do you guys think there is a market for alot of older hybrids if I was to use alot of newer species to create better growing ones here. Using Stephan's Paph Vexillarium as a point. Google came up with only 5 sites. None of them are sales websites. Of course, I would focus on some fairrieanum hybrids first... Just wanted to see what the OG's thought about a small venture like this. It seems to be a relatively inexpensive(as far as orchids go) project. Thanks! Is there a niche for this kind of venture?

I was planning on remaking some older hybrids as part of my breeding program as well. The main problem with the older hybrids is that they aren't always what they are claimed to be. Some have blank spots in the geneology ('unknown'). While it would be easy to remake primary hybrids (duh), it would be very difficult to replicate Winston Churchill, for example.

Anyway, I think with the latest round of interest in primary and novelty hybrids, a lot of the older ones have been remade already. Particularly those with roth or sanderianum. Prince Edward of York is a good example. I think there is always a market for good crosses, regardless of whether they have been done before or not. I'd take some of your fairrieanum hybrids...

Rob

Tadd, I'm always interested in hybridising ideas, especially with fairrieanum. I also have some older complex hybrids if you're interested in collaborating.
some examples:
Paph Sunset 'Alpha' AM/AOS
Paph Battle of Egypt 'Alpha' AM/RHS
Paph Earl of Chester
Paph Bell Ringer 'Brocade' AM/AOS
Paph Matchless 'Langleys'
Paph FC Puddle
Paph Hellas 'Westonbirt' HCC/AOS

Or do you want to go way back and start with some of the very 'building blocks' of complex Paphs like Niobe(fairrieanum x spicerianum) or Beeckmanii (bellatulum x boxalii)?

Tadd,

In my opinion it remains to be seen if there is a niche in the area of older paph hybridizing. I certainly believe there is a niche for the older type paphs (period). This is clear by paphreeks list of old hybrids. If careful study of the background of the very old hybrids ie: 1880-1946 as well as the moderately (if you will) old hybrids ie: 1947-1980 with some of the newer hybrids and species ie: post 1980; we may produce some exciting flowers. A goal must be made in advance. This goal could be shared by a number of members in agreement. Crosses made and shared. When the results are seen; we then will know if it was worth it. Then remakes for sale to the public could be accomplished.
However, this being said, it will take at least two generations of paphs before we will know. This takes at least 4-8 years. It does sound like a lot of fun and (God knows) may add a positive to the paph world.

Example: Frank Booth made a cross of Paph A. Dimmock x St. Swithin named St. Alfrick in 1994. It is the only cross ever made with A. Dimmock which was registered in 1902! He said that the result were some excellent flowers. He only made a couple of flasks of it and never sold any. His collection was subsequently sold. I have never seen a picture of one, but this idea could be an excellent direction in breeding depending on the goal.

The orchid world always did and always will want to go forward with newer hybrids. However, I do believe that there could be a niche for bringing some of the older hybrids into this progress forward in hybridizing.

Thanks

MmmmHhhhhmmm -I wonder if I can add anything to this?

The points made in this thread are all so relevant. If I've read my history right, the first Orchid cross was made for the "fun" of it. Granted it was a scientific experiment but it was made with no full expectation of the outcome - hence "fun".

Greenpaph says that a cross should be made with a plan - this to is true although normally more so for a commercial venture than not. There are many hobbyists who have and will cross simply to see the result and I don't believe they should be deterred from doing so. Although - and this is one kicker I hear here - the hobbyists could "muddy" the waters if they resell "named" but unregistered plants (also, they may well be of inferior quality). While this view point is valid, from what I've seen here it is more often than not a reputation and peer based thing more so than quality (or at least that's my view).

In my recent buying "spree" I've browsed printed and on-line catalogues. Here in Australia we don't have a huge number of Paphiopedilum specialist nurseries. Many of the primaries I have seen advertised or purchased (including the Vexilarium) are "remade" old crosses. The advertising speil, however, is that they are better than the old crosses as they use "line bred" parents. The end result, I hope, is that the plant/flower is closer to the ideal envisioned by the original cross(er).

Bottom line - if you want to do it, have the resources, patience and time - then go for it. If you want to earn money from orchids - good luck :)

Cheers
Stephan

The old adage "If you want to make a million in the orchid business..........start with two million". :)

The old adage "If you want to make a million in the orchid business..........start with two million". :)

LOL! Excellent comment, Tadd. There are very few Paphiopedilum breeders that make a profit hybridizing. This is precisely why interested amateurs should follow their breeding whims, unshackled by the concern of making money. That said, care should be taken in doing crosses only with vigourous plants with flowers free of major defects.

I personally have started a small breeding program (boy, that sounds pretentious! :shock: ). My main goal is to produce miniature complex hybrids of various types. Hence, the interest in small growing species such as barbigerum, fowliei, niveum, henryanum, and fairrieanum. Rather than cross them with the biggest of the new complex hybrids, I've turned to older complex hybrids that have good color and shape, but are smaller.

While that may be my main area of interest at the moment, I'm always interested in contributing pollen to someone elses breeding goals, if I have the right plants. With possibly a few exceptions, no single one of us (on the forum) has all the resources in terms of breeding plants to pursue all our interests, but together we probably have a good collection of breeders.

The old adage "If you want to make a million in the orchid business..........start with two million". :)

you can say that for almost any hobby business :lol:

With possibly a few exceptions, no single one of us (on the forum) has all the resources in terms of breeding plants to pursue all our interests, but together we probably have a good collection of breeders.

That's a really nice comment, Ross. Really brings home what a great collection of slipper growers (and OTHER growers) we have here.

I am absolutely floored on a daily basis by the generosity and sharing of knowledge here. Really, really fabulous community. Pete and I, we never imagined this....NEVER!

Sounds great Ross! I can't wait to trade for some of these crosses! I bet we do have a pretty fair collection between all of us, some of us better than others(not including myself) of course!

I am open to sharing any of my pollen!

thanks

Let's get on with it! From now on, whenever I post a pic in the gallery, I will indicate if pollen is available

Good Idea, I have some Angela available if you need it. I might have some armeniacum soon too.

Let's get on with it! From now on, whenever I post a pic in the gallery, I will indicate if pollen is available

I may have pollen of many of the flowers posted that have bloomed recentlyl. Feel free to ask. Too many to list.

Good Idea, I have some Angela available if you need it. I might have some armeniacum soon too.

Thanks, Tadd, I'll look for some ideas. and get back to you if I come up with any ideas

Thanks, Peter, I'll review your most recent pics. :)

I would be so interested to see tigrinum crossed with either roth or sanderianum, or phil for that matter. . I'm sure it must have been done a long, long time ago and this is not an original idea, but I've never come across photos of any primary hybrids using tigrinum. Perhaps tigrinum is a difficult species to breed???

Susan I have a baby Geoffrey Hands which is roth x tigrinum. It is tiny and will be years before I see it bloom but I'm curious to see what the flowers will look like.

Thanks Pete!!!

Any "tiger" crosses interest me. I have a few babies that will take years to bloom, as well. My little baby sanderianum, which cost me a small fortune, has only a 3" leaf spread, at best. By the time that baby blooms, humans might be colonizing Mars! :lol:

good luck with the project Tadd...

and, well... you know... how bout this for a cross...

insigne var albo-marginatum x philippinense 'alba'

the two species have never been registered with RHS so there's one for someone to stick their name too :poke:

also, I would think that the insigne might beef up the philippinense. And aren't these two supposedly the easier ones to grow??? so should only take two years till flowering, right :confused:

I think timewise though, ie phil flowers late spring summer right? and then insigne is more autumn.. but y'all can stick the pollen in the fridge for a while surely...

anyways, that's all from me folks...

Cheers
Tim

Tim, that is a wonderful idea. I love both species!!!! :clap:

Thanks Pete!!!

Any "tiger" crosses interest me. I have a few babies that will take years to bloom, as well. My little baby sanderianum, which cost me a small fortune, has only a 3" leaf spread, at best. By the time that baby blooms, humans might be colonizing Mars! :lol:

Oh boy, your 3" baby sanderianum will take forever to reach maturity Mine has now reached 8-9" in LS, extremely S-L-O-W growing species, I'm telling you! What cross do you have?

Pete, I will take a look tomorrow. It is in the screenhouse outside and I don't want to get eaten alive by the "skeeters!!"

But, it is liking it outside and I see it is getting a new little leaf. I had been worried about it. I think it likes the humidity. I know it might take a decade for it to bloom. It was the only one I could find within my price range. (Heck, I may have well have bought a flask, considering the time frame involved to raise these!!!)

Pete,

My sanderianum cross is 'Jungle Monarch' x 'Jungle Warrior.' Right now, it is neither a monarch nor a warrior. It is a wee little thing. But it IS getting a new leaf! :-dance:

Thanks, Susan! I think Heather also has that same cross and she has a bunch of different ones. Mine is In Charm x Shin Yi.

Yes, that's one of mine. I want one of Pete's crosses....:D

good luck with the project Tadd...

and, well... you know... how bout this for a cross...

insigne var albo-marginatum x philippinense 'alba'

the two species have never been registered with RHS so there's one for someone to stick their name too :poke:

also, I would think that the insigne might beef up the philippinense. And aren't these two supposedly the easier ones to grow??? so should only take two years till flowering, right :confused:

I think timewise though, ie phil flowers late spring summer right? and then insigne is more autumn.. but y'all can stick the pollen in the fridge for a while surely...



Umm... Hate to break anybody's naming bubble, but varieties do not count for RHS registration. insigne v. albo-marginatum is just an insigne, and philippinense alba is just a philippinense. Both of those species have been used for registration. I know that the RHS is doing something (in my opinion dangerous and idiotic) by allowing people to give the same cross two different names if they were made with distinct forms of the parents. I wouldn't count on that happening, and the rules for that aren't entirely clear, anyway.

But, the good news is that insigne x philippinense has not been registered... At least as of my version of Wildcatt. I'm not quite sure that I would want to make that cross, but don't let me stop you. Could be interesting.

Umm... Hate to break anybody's naming bubble, but varieties do not count for RHS registration. insigne v. albo-marginatum is just an insigne, and philippinense alba is just a philippinense.

But, the good news is that insigne x philippinense has not been registered... At least as of my version of Wildcatt.

ok, sorry to confuse people about that... I did mean insigne x philippinense has not been registered yet, but the particular cross I was thinking using the particular varieties will hopefully mean that insigne's seemingly dominant spots won't be passed on...

anyhoo... I can't do it since my insigne albo marg is still a seedling and not sure if the variety sanderae will pass on the spots.. oh yeah and I don't have a philippinense alba.. yet...

but for the sake of naming rights.... someone might want to just cross the ordinary ones to get their name on it or something like that...

Cheers
Tim