I have a Phrag Hanne Popov x sedenii 4N. What is 4N? I also have a Phrag bessae "Wings of fire". This is a specie, right? Why does it have an extra name then?
Just wondering :wink:

Milda

it is part of its genetics 4n is a stronger plant than usual i think it is called a tetraploid? hopefully a paph pro will help you out i dont know much

I'm not a good one to explain ploidy...I'll get it wrong. I would imagine Rob or Rick will chime in...or someone more expert at explanations of genetics.

Wings of Fire is the clonal epithet for your besseae. Same idea as, for instance, Paph. rothschildianum 'Rex' x 'Mont Millais'. I don't know who named it but I also have the same grex. Supposed to be a nice one, from what I've heard. Clonal epithets are just an identifier of the person who grew the plant, and useful when breeding or showing. Often named after people or places, such as Paph. insigne 'Suzanne' or Phrag. wallisii 'Windy Hill'.

4n refers to the number of pairs of chromosomes in a living thing being doubled. Humans and most other living things are 2n(two pairs of chromosomes), but when you treat plants with a chemical called colchicine, it will double the pairs in some of them. It can also create a plant with three pairs(3n) that is sterile. It can create many mutations from variegation to deformity, but can also make flowers and plants larger and more robust. It has also helped greatly in making complex phrag hybrids fertile to breed with. Hope this helps.

Jon, is colchicine used on other orchid genera, to produce this or just Phrags?

Thanks for the fine explanation!!

Colchicine is what's used on most living things to produce polyploidy, not just orchids. It is the only chemical I've ever heard of for this purpose, but there may be others.

Jon

But, I don't recall other genera (such as Paphs) being tri or tetraploid. Does it not work well for Paphs, etc.?

I've seen a few 4n paphs...not sure why they aren't as common. I was always wondering why no one ever sold 4n rothschildianum. I know I'd like to have one.

Jon

Thanks Jon, didn't mean to ask so many questions!
Truly though, I wonder if it has to do w/ polyploidy notoriously slowing down the growth habit and something like rothschildianum, we are all trying to speed up? I wouldn't want a tetraploid stonei, now would I??


Oh wait! I have two stonei 'Fernwood' 4Ns. Just remembered that! :lol: I think they are my only tetra Paphs. though.

What I would also like to find are some of the monster white phals from years ago. Apparently when breeders were trying to get the biggest whites they could, some were made 6n and 8n! I can only imagine the substance these flowers must have had.

Jon

Have you seen Norman's 6" large white phals? Not sure if they are 6N. How big were the 6N phals?

Marriott Orchids has a few colchicine treated paphs.

Colchicine is what's used on most living things to produce polyploidy, not just orchids. It is the only chemical I've ever heard of for this purpose, but there may be others.

Jon
Eric Young Orchid Foundation was doing a lot of work with colchicine treated phrags and paphs. There was another guy... it will come to me... who lived in a really remote part of california who was treating a lot of paphs. Burkhardt! He is no longer in business, and I believe has passed away.

As stated before, a 4N is a plant with double the normal compliment of chromosomes (2N - diploid - is the normal number per non-gamete cell). We call those tetraploids. You can also have triploids (3N). Often you get triploids by crossing a 4N plant with a 2N plant... Triploids are notorious for being poor breeders, for obvious reasons when you think about it. Most plants will tolerate polyploidy (having more than the diploid number of chromosomes) fairly well. Very few animals do, with the exception of some fish. Polyploidy in mammals is lethal. Aneuploidy, having more (or less) than 2 of any given chromosome is also really bad.

Colchicine (derived from crocus, I believe) interferes with mitotic spindle function. Chromosomes double during cell division, and are then pulled apart by the mitotic spindle, one set going into each resultant cell (of two, of course). Colchicine inhibits this process, so you get two cells, one of which has double DNA, one has no DNA and dies. Back when I was a graduate student in cancer biology, I could have told you more...

There are other agents which would have similar effects. Taxol (one of those new chemotherapy drugs) mucks about with this process too. A lot of the vinca alkaloids (vinblastine, vincristine, etc) do too, if I recall.

The only chemical commonly used for polyploidy induction (as far as I know) is colchicine. It is cheap and easy to find. And the protocols are well described. But any of this class of drugs could be used, I suspect. Even so, a very large percentage of the colchicine treated protocorms (that is usually the stage at which plants are treated) die. A good portion of the remainder are alive because they didn't convert. It isn't terribly efficient. And, more DNA doesn't necessarily make a better plant. Polyploids often have bigger flowers with more substance, but not always. They often grow more slowly, may not ever bloom, and the flowers can get pretty whacky sometimes.

Now, if you are planning to do this yourself, remember that I said these were chemotherapy drugs (colchicine used to be used to treat gout, too). That should remind you that you shouldn't be playing with these at home, unless you really really know what you are doing. Seriously bad things can happen if you touch, ingest, inhale, or otherwise encounter this stuff.

Wow!! Interesting! Thanks for the explaination! Well, it's ok with me that it doesn't work on human beings :shock: I have to admit, I couldn't understand it all, but relax - I don't plan to play with chemotherapy at home :twisted:

Milda

Wow!! Interesting! Thanks for the explaination! Well, it's ok with me that it doesn't work on human beings :shock: I have to admit, I couldn't understand it all, but relax - I don't plan to play with chemotherapy at home :twisted:

Milda

The reason these drugs work for cancers is because the cancer cells are dividing more often than non-cancer cells. More divisions, more chromosome replication. More mitotic spindles. More chance to wreck havoc on the resulting cells. If this works right, a cancer cell divides and the daughter cells receive either twice as much DNA (fatal), or no DNA (fatal).

Taxol works slightly differently. It stabilizes the mitotic spindle, so that it can't break down. It needs to break down in order for the cell to finish dividing. So, no division, the cells get stuck in mitosis, and then they die. Cool...

This is just one class of chemotherapeutic agents. There are many ways to kill cells. Many rely on the fact that cancer cells are dividing more rapidly than normal cells. The most exciting new thing (to me, anyway) are some newer classes of drugs which actually look for proteins unique to a cancer cell, sparing the normal cells. Much more potent and with fewer side effects.

But I haven't been in the cancer biz for 10 years or so. Unfortunately, they haven't fixed it while I was gone...

Rob, thanks. That is really interesting. I had no idea how chemo worked.

See you can teach an old dog new tricks. Learn something new everyday!

See you can teach an old dog new tricks. Learn something new everyday!

If you just called me an old dog, you are in deep deep trouble, Mr.! :?

Actually their are quite a few 4n paphs out there, including roths. Heather the place where we got our sanderianum seedlings from likes to use colchicine quite a bit, and I specifically asked for non treated sanderianum seedlings from them.

Polyploidy can happen naturally, but usually as a result of natural hybridization. One of the strangest cases is in whiptail lizards of New Mexico, where two species with different chromosome counts hybridized and formed a stable population of polyploids that are parthenogenic (i.e. females having babies without fertilation by males).

The Catt people have gone nuts with polyploids (thats often how they got the intense colors and giant flowers), and most of it was done by hybidization rather than colchicine treatments. There was a recent article in Orchid digest on Catts that had comparisons of standard species and their tetraploids, but I don't recall if they were chemically induced.

Also Phrag Jason Fisher is a 4n bessea. I don't now if colchicine was used to produce this tetraploid. I also don't know if a tetraploid of a species (natural or artificially induced) is still considered a species (i.e. Prag. Jason Fisher rather than Phrag bessae var. 4n)

I would never call you an old dog.... :poke:

I've seen quite a few hybrids across genera with the 4N label but by far the largest group I've seen for sale are the Phrag. red form varieties and typically they can be traced back to the Eric Young Foundation. Supposedly, none of the Phrags I have are colchecine treated but derived from 4N parentage. The jury is still out for me on whether or not they actually do produce larger flowers or faster growth but there's plenty of testimony that it's true. What I notice most is the Memoria and Wimber vars seem to take forever to show noticeable growth in leaves, as long as roth or philippinense.

The single 4N catt I have is the LC 'Love Knot' coerulea that is definitely colchecine treated and I've commented elsewhere here about weird growth habits.

the dearth of 4N paphs is because, plain and simple, they grow slowly enough as it is without having that tetraploid jinx (on average 4N will grow much more slowly than 2N or even 3N). a tetraploid roths might bloom, what, twice a lifetime?

Yep, that's what I figured, Bozo...

(I really need to find a MATURE stonei, one of these days.) Sigh...

Also Phrag Jason Fisher is a 4n bessea. I don't now if colchicine was used to produce this tetraploid. I also don't know if a tetraploid of a species (natural or artificially induced) is still considered a species (i.e. Prag. Jason Fisher rather than Phrag bessae var. 4n)

I'm not sure I'd say that Jason Fischer is the same as a tetraploid besseae. The good Jason Fischers have been made with tetraploid besseae, of course. There have been plenty made with 2N parents as well.

It does seem that polyploid phrags perform better than polyploid paphs. I used to buy a lot of colchicine treated species paphs from Burkhardt, and I don't know that any ever did that well. Although most if not all of the 'bulldog' type paphs are not diploids. At least that is what I heard somewhere. It is possible that in paphs that the benefits of polyploidy may not really be seen until after a few generations of hybridizing.

For purposes of registration and judging, polyploid orchids are still considered members of the species from which they were derived. So a 4N besseae is still a besseae. They will behave a bit differently in breeding, but still a besseae. You will find natural tetraploids and triploids in many if not most orchid populations in situ. They aren't common, but they are around.

Jason Fischer is NOT a 4N besseae, it is a hybrid. I've heard rumors that the JF that look very similar to besseae have occasionally been submitted for judging as straight besseae, but I would expect no less from slipper growers. bunch of psychos.

Whats the hybrid?

I may be confused on this one too. But I saw a picture caption of a JF that read JF 4N bessea.

Maybe that was some additional back cross that was not labled correctly.

4n refers to the number of pairs of chromosomes in a living thing being doubled. Humans and most other living things are 2n(two pairs of chromosomes), but when you treat plants with a chemical called colchicine, it will double the pairs in some of them. It can also create a plant with three pairs(3n) that is sterile. It can create many mutations from variegation to deformity, but can also make flowers and plants larger and more robust. It has also helped greatly in making complex phrag hybrids fertile to breed with. Hope this helps.

3n is not necessarily sterile. Infact, sometimes triploidy can be very fertile.

Whats the hybrid?

I may be confused on this one too. But I saw a picture caption of a JF that read JF 4N bessea.

Maybe that was some additional back cross that was not labled correctly.

According to the RHS registration site Jason Fischer is P Memoria Dick Clemens x P besseae registered in 1996.

Thanks Ernie
I looked it up last night too. Dick Clements is also sargentianumXbesseae. So I guess a Jason Fisher is 3/4 besseae and 1/4 sargentianum. I'm sure I misread that picture caption.

I also read that there were 4N besseaes, ("Terry's Choice" and "Rob's Choice") produced with colchicine that have been used frequently in back crosses with other besseae hybids.

Since you mentioned it, I've seen where P. sargentianum is also listed as P. lindleyanum var sargentianum. Any history there?

You can also add lindleyanum var kaieteurum. The pictures of the vars differ slightly in the amount of red, and supposedly in the degree of branching of the spikes.

Some DNA work done by Loayza Muluzka suggests that all 3 are genetically distinct (at some level), but sargentianum is more closely related to lindlyanum than kaieteurum.

Article in Orchids (Feb 2005)

I'd like to add that cholchicine has been used on many genera to produce tetraploid plants: Cymbidiums, Phals, Cattleyas, Paphs. Sometimes it improves the plants, sometimes it doesn't. It makes the plants slower growing, so if there is no improvement in flowers then its a hindrance. Perhaps the reason you don't see many other genera done with cholchicine is that cholchicine is extremely dangerous. I've heard that more than just a few orchidists have died by not being careful enough and exposed to even small amounts. As a lab techologist I tried to order some once but the liability insurance was enormous.

I had an 8N Phal. Joseph Hampton a long time ago. An Octoploid. It was very slow growing and extremely difficult to maintain. The flowers were the same size as a regular Joseph Hampton, but were as thick as cardboard, so were the leaves. I finally lost it to a bad case of scale and neglect.