Does anyone know how big they get at maturity? From the many photos that I have seen online, they look pretty big to me.

I saw a picture of a bloom from Slipper Quarterly maybe, and the bloom itself was bigger than any complex I have seen. The plant does look very large, but I am not positive!

Some of the pics I've seen in Orchid Digest make the plant size comparable to big caudatum types, or a big longifolium.

Yes, I saw one photo where the leaves looked exactly like my longifolium long leaves.

I ordered three Phrag. kovachii flasks from Manolo Arias from Peruflora and picked them up at the Newbury International Orchid Show ( U.K. ) last weekend. Two were sib crosses and the third was kovachii x wallissii. According to Manolo the plants get quite large ( 24" ls ). I had to sign a form that I would not trade, sell or give away any plants for 21 months.

There will be BIG BIG BIG surprises. Not every one had to sign that form. Wait to see who is going to sell those first, those who signed lost a great deal of money !

Somebody told me that the plants get at least bushel basket sized... I'll take two.

*grin*

Rob

H<------runs to get more plywood

:D

I'm looking forward to watching the frenzy that is unleashed when these babies start coming onto the market. :Party:

My intention in buying the flasks was to be able to select out quality clones for my personal collection. It certainly wasn't to make 'a great deal of money'. I have never sold a plant in over 25 years of growing orchids. I only trade or give plants away. The cost of the seedlings, in flask, was not out of line to what ordinary quality phrag. flasks cost (10.00/seedling )
Any plants being sold in the next 21 months will be considered illegal and will be confiscated and the owners will be prosecuted. I guess did not attend the WOC in Dijon to hear how strident a number or regulators were when Cites was being discussed. This is arguably the most important orchid species discovered in the last 100 years - and it will be protected.
That being said, the plants in the flasks are quite small and I doubt that any would be ready for sale before the time has expired.

P.S. You seem very angry????

Paphgirl - I talked to Sam Tsui at the show and he was quite confident that the market will be flooded with Prag. kovachii seedlings in two years time. mostly from Holland and Germany. He did not buy any flasks. He thinks seedlings will be available in the U.S. for around 50.00.

I just can't wait to get my nice clean hands on a kovachii! :lol: Think of all the new eye popping fantastic hybrids coming out in a few years, WOW!!!

Let's just hope it's not recessive for size - after all sometimes size does matter :D

My intention in buying the flasks was to be able to select out quality clones for my personal collection. It certainly wasn't to make 'a great deal of money'.
Any plants being sold in the next 21 months will be considered illegal and will be confiscated and the owners will be prosecuted.
P.S. You seem very angry????

I am not speaking about you, and no I am not angry, because I can get flasks without this license anytime... It is ethically unacceptable to sell some flasks with license, and others without, period. Orchids Limited signed the license, and they will be unable to sell their plants when others will flood the market with legal seedlings.

Judging by the size of the seedlings in the flasks, I doubt if there will be many seedling available in the near future. The flasks being released are from the original sowing and as a result I feel all those in this for a commercial reason are on a level playing field.
It would appear that the germination rate was very high and that there will not be a lack of seedlings available.

Yes, but Peruflora is not the only nursery to have flasks, is that not true? Is the other nursery going to force people to sign this document as well? Otherwise....

I think that for the security of the plants in their natural environment, it is extremely important to release seedlings to the general population of orchid growers as soon as possible. If some people were able to obtain flasks without out signing to this stipulation, and can get the plants on the market sooner, this will reduce the pressure on the population of Phrag. kovachii in the wild.

With so many potential sales, especially when you consider internet commerce, how could the 21 month moratorium on sales realistically be enforced??

How long does it take to bring a kovachii to Blooming Size? Maybe the moratorium really does not matter???

Confused as usual.:confused:

Are they already approaching extinction in the wild???:disappointed:

With so many potential sales, especially when you consider internet commerce, how could the 21 month moratorium on sales realistically be enforced??

How long does it take to bring a kovachii to Blooming Size? Maybe the moratorium really does not matter???

Confused as usual.:confused:

Are they already approaching extinction in the wild???:disappointed:

I've heard that they grow quite fast. And I suspect that there will be plenty of blooming sized seedlings for sale when the 21 months are up. There is a reason for the 21 month moratorium, so I've heard, but I don't think I'm free to discuss it publically. Although I might respond to a private e-mail... The information is probably worth just about what I paid for it. (in other words, bupkus).

Just as an example of what happens to the market when plants become (magically!) legal... The minute Antec released vietnamense seedlings, you could buy Ho Chi Minh (delenatii x vietnamense) on the internet. Near blooming size (or blooming, sometimes). Remarkable how that happens... Those are 'precocious' seedlings, of course, and perfectly legal. :poke:

So, I suspect that there is some magic potion out there which will allow us to purchase quite large kovachii in April of 2007. Some growers have better fertilizer than others. I mean, it must be magic, right?

Basically, the release of the first legal kovachii seedlings also means the open release of the first illegal kovachii seedlings, from plants smuggled into Europe, US, and elsewhere....I'm sure that only the smallest will be released first, but I wonder how fast some of these will appear to have grown in a year or so..........................Take care, Eric

They are in the same group as besseae is and besseaes are fast growers, so hopefully kovachiis are fast growing plants!

This is so very interesting. Which branch/agency of the US Government is responsible for enforcing CITES???

There are so many transactions going on via the internat. How could any Governmenal Agency keep up>

The Fish and Wildlife branch is in charge of CITES in the U.S. Any seedlings being sold on the internet would be easily Googled by this agency and their 'legality' would be verified. CITES enforcement is taken very seriously - it's not just a slap on the wrist and confiscating the plant (s)! There will be plenty of seedlings with the proper documentation available.

The Fish and Wildlife branch is in charge of CITES in the U.S. Any seedlings being sold on the internet would be easily Googled by this agency and their 'legality' would be verified. CITES enforcement is taken very seriously - it's not just a slap on the wrist and confiscating the plant (s)! There will be plenty of seedlings with the proper documentation available.

Indeed... No plant is worth the fine and the possible jail time. Besides, kovachii will be hideously expensive for the next few years, legal or not. Wait two or three years, and the market will adjust appropriately. You will still pay 75-100+ US for a blooming sized plant in three years, but you can be reasonably assured at that point that the plants are artificially propagated.

There really isn't much point in getting jungle collected stock, anyway. Why would you want random plants ripped out of the jungle, packed bare root tight in boxes, and who knows how long in the box? You know they aren't coming FedEx... It will take years for those plants to recover, if they recover. Far better to buy artificially propaged seedlings, which have been bred from selected parents (good flowers) and raised in captivity. They will grow better and faster.

All that said, I think that there shouldn't be any CITES restrictions on materials in flask. The point of the exercise of conservation is to restrict the removal of plants from the wild. No better way to do that than to make artificially propagated material cheaper than wild collected. CITES works great for charismatic megafauna (tigers, koalas, parrots), which are difficult to propagate. And I'm sure there are some plants that are difficult to propagate (tree ferns, for example). However, orchids have tens if not hundreds of thousands of seeds per capsule...

Yes, but Peruflora is not the only nursery to have flasks, is that not true? Is the other nursery going to force people to sign this document as well? Otherwise....

There should be other flasks. I'm not sure why the Peruflora place is the only place you seem to be able to buy them. There is at least one other nursery in Peru that has a permit to propagate kovachii. I think Peruflora has permit #2...

There's a set of pictures showing some relative size and bloom habit on www.peruorchids.com as well as a picture of a purple bloom.

In reality how many Phrag growers will have the room to grow a plant of the size were lead to belive this is ??
what do other phrag growers think ?would one fit into your collection -I known the colour is exciting and new -but my thoughts would be to wait until a downsized one was available.

Just thinking ??? Billie :roll:

In reality how many Phrag growers will have the room to grow a plant of the size were lead to belive this is ??
what do other phrag growers think ?would one fit into your collection -I known the colour is exciting and new -but my thoughts would be to wait until a downsized one was available.

Just thinking ??? Billie :roll:

Sorcerers Apprentice was a very popular hybrid for a long time (I still have lots - Cheap!). It is huge. A lot of phrags get big. And I suspect that kovachii will stay small enough if you keep it in a smallish pot for growing under lights.

But the true value of kovachii for most hobby growers with small space will be the hybrids. Hybridizing with things like schlimii and besseae will bring the size of the plants down to manageable levels, and should give us some very interesting colors.

Although not having grown kovachii, or seen it in person (...sigh...), any reports of its plant growth habit are strictly imaginary to me. Perhaps it does get to bushel basket size in Peru. A lot of things get really big in habitat. I suspect that plants in cultivation will tend to be a lot smaller.

I found this picture of "something" that might be a P. kovachii and I can't tell for sure. One thing I do know is the plant itself resembles a phrag with multiple growths and about a 20 inch, strap leaf. It's relatively easy to judge the size based on the common surrounding plants. Here's the image:

http://www.orchidphotos.org/images/orchids/POE2005/Thurs/image011.htm

If that's NOT a kovachii, I definitely want to know what it is and where to get one!! Anyone have a clue? I think that's a display at the show by Diablo orchids, whomever they are.

Ernie - I don't know, yeah, it's kov allright, but something odd about that pic - like the bloom was photoshopped in. kovachii is big but that big??? Something is off, if you ask me...

It think it is a fake and it looks like it is made of silk.

I kind of thought that it's a fake too considering the size and the bit of comedy attempted in that picture. What got me though is there are multiple pictures of the same display showing different aspects of the same flower prominently displayed. I know a bit of how pictures are faked and maintaining the same aspect ratios from multiple views is really hard to do even with expensive programs. I'll have to do some further research into the Diablo Orchid Society (they sponsored that display) and see if anyone else besides Eric Hunt took some pictures of their stuff at that Orchid show.

Ernie, it looks like a fake flower which is part of the display, showing what would happen if you have illegal kovachiis. Look at the warnings on the wall and guy behind bars. Nice bit of comic display

Wow what a discussion! That flower in the photo does look fake. Paper mache anyone? Little Frog Said: "I suspect that there is some magic potion out there which will allow us to purchase quite large kovachii in April of 2007. Some growers have better fertilizer than others. I mean, it must be magic, right?"
Where can I get some of that potion? :poke:

Someone was having fun with that photo.

No way! But it is funny!':D

that picture is absolutely hilarious. what a schmuck, wanting immortality but feigning ignorance at cites.

Well about kovachii some nurseries I belive that has a flasks here I saw a legal flask that him bought in Dijon (France) , but he had a assigne a term of care the flask for 2 years, them him can sell , or same this. Of course i belive that big nurseries has this specie adult , and some hibrids with kovachii , I belive in 2 years this plant will be legal sold !!!

Hey does anyone here know if Kovachii or its hybrids have landed in Australia yet?

Thanks

Kevin Butler and Kevin Western are both listed as legal owners of Phrag kovachii in Australia according to Peruflora.

That is very good news, I will have to track down those guys and find out more.

Thanks

There is a cymbidium grower in Perth by the name of Kevin Butler

I understand that the legal plants in flask from the other nursery , you will have to sign paper work. I think the south american Gov't has something to do with this.
The flowers are the size of a persons hand,I have seen various pictures of some of the different clones.
It will be very exciting when we have plants to breed with ,it will change the orchid world on phrags.

Kevin Butler is the owner of Ezi-gro Orchids. He has a website which is a few years out of date, but the contact details should still be the same...

cheers
tim

I hope that the chromosomes of Phrag. Kovachii are compatible with related forms so that we don't get a lot of sterile hybrids like so many of the 3n phrags that are available now.
Dean Stock

Sorry about seeing double. Once was enough. Not quite sure what I did.

Some legit flasks have found their way to EU, sold at 500$/50 seedlings... and no 24 months retention requirement !

Check out Withner's DNA Analysis on Phrag. kovachii... everything you may want to see and more is there in his article, I forgot when the article was, if anyone is really interested in the article and DNA Analysis of P. kovachii, just contact me, and I will send it to you via .pdf document... I can also get more info if anyone has the GenBank Accession number for P. kovachii... I cannot seem to find the Acc. #... will post the number if I get it...

-P.A. Mahon

Hi. I have not seen Withner's work on P. kovachii and if possible I would like to receive it. DNA analysis will not tell you the number of chromosomes but would give relative amount of DNA. How much of that is repeated sequences would be important to know.
Dean Stock

Albert,

If you forward to me your e-mail address, I will quickly get the article to you. My e-mail is on my profile, or just: mahon.orchid@gmail.com

Yeah, forgot that the chromosome count is not given, I have just contacted Stig about the accession number for Phrag. kovachii, but will recieve that tommorow, and will also ask for chromo. count... anyone know of any other DNA Analysis on Phrag. kovachii other than Withner's?

As soon as I get that accession number, I will forward you the entire DNA Analysis with all bases and everything available... until then, Withner's will suffice (not in text format)...

ttyl,
-P.A. Mahon

This was not Withner, but Norris Williams and colleagues at the fla. Museum of nat. History. The work was published in ORCHIDS recently. The phylogenetic placment of Phrag kovachii largely builds on the data already presented by Cox et al. Some new work on chloroplast DNA regios, though, which will help for ID purposes. Nothing re: long stretches of repetitive sequences or chromosomes. The data are available through the GenBank database at NCBI (www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov). If you have any questions, pls. let me know.

Besk

If any of you know of chromosome data for Phrag. kovachii please let me know. I have been asked to do it and would hate to take the time and work and have it come out before I got it to them for puplication.
Dean

Hi Stock:

Have not heard of any chromosome count for kovachii. If you do it, do it legal!

Best from Besk

The material for doing legal chromosome counts is now available in the U.S. I would not considere doing it for publication any other way and in fact it would probably not be accepted for publication without being legal. I do not grow them or sell them so why would I consider doing it any other way?? Several individuals now have legal seedlings of Phrag. Kovachii in this country and material for root tip analysis will soon be available as these plants are grown up. Legal material is also available in several Eu countries as well. My concern is that others may have had access to plant material sooner and may already be doing chromosome counts that my work might duplicate. Since the flowers are so much larger, it is of considerable concern for hybridizers to know the ploidy level before making hybrids. Otherwise, many triploid crosses may be produced just as has happened with the 4n clones of other phrags.

From what I am told there might be two populations of kovachii. One with very large plants and the other with a more manageable size plant. If this is the case, studies would need to be done with both plants to see if one group is 4N

I just heard Glen Decker (of Piping Rock Orchids) talking today about kovachii, he's here in Colorado at the Denver Orchid Society show and sale. I'll be hearging more from him on Tuesday at his lecture, but he said that they have already made FOURTEEN kovachii hybrids! They are, at the moment, not allowed to remove them from Peru (or wherever their South American Greenhouses are; I assume Peru).

I can't wait to see what they bring!

-Matt

Matt,
If you have any photos of Glen's display, I'd love to see it! Last week here he had only his Phrags, but I think Ron said he was saving the Paphs for Denver.

Thanks! Oh, and is it snowing there yet? I thought of you when they mentioned that on the weather this morning.

There is an article in the Fall SOA newsletter by Jerry Fischer about he and Chuck Acker's trip to Peru to bring back flasks. He specifically says that they signed the INRENA agreement in order to "punish those who have the plants illegally and may already have flasks" and that his seedlings are growing well, will be available April 2007 (unless something with INRENA changes) and that he'll write a culture article in a year.

Oh yes, and while there they saw the original parent plants at the nursery and that many leaves were 3" wide and 18-24" long. There's a picture he took included and the plants are quite large with beautiful dark green foliage.

It's always nice to hear a firm date on the release of Kovachii :)

The folks at Piping Rock Orchids apparently have been doing their own propogating and breeding (legally, of course) in Peru, and they say that they are waiting for a permit from the Peruvian Govt. to be able to import them into the US. Mr. Decker wasn't able to give any firm estimate as to when his plants will be available in the US - but he said that he had just hired a new lawyer in Peru to help expedite things. His hopeful estimate ("pipe-dream, he called it :) ) is that they will get the permits and put the plants on sale THIS SPRING. Pipe-dream, he said. :)

The better news is that he said that he would try to keep the price as LOW as possible, partially in order to protect the wild plants... he wants to flood the market with kovachii as quickly as possible. He said he didn't see why he should have to charge more than $35-50 per plant.

This is all information that he told the Denver Orchid Society this month, so no doubt some of you have heard it... just thought I'd pass it along. :)

-Matthew

BTW - Paphgirl, when I drove down to Denver for the last DOS meeting, there was about 4 inches of snow on the ground there! Here in Fort Collins, we didnt see any real snow, though. And I blew a tire on my drive back home at 10 pm, thats never fun in the snow.

There is an article in the Fall SOA newsletter by Jerry Fischer about he and Chuck Acker's trip to Peru to bring back flasks. He specifically says that they signed the INRENA agreement in order to "punish those who have the plants illegally and may already have flasks" and that his seedlings are growing well, will be available April 2007 (unless something with INRENA changes) and that he'll write a culture article in a year.

Oh yes, and while there they saw the original parent plants at the nursery and that many leaves were 3" wide and 18-24" long. There's a picture he took included and the plants are quite large with beautiful dark green foliage.

A month or so ago I saw Jerry's kovachii seedlings. He had replated them into fresh flasks to grow further before deflasking. He felt that they needed more time in flask in order to be successful.

A month or so ago I saw Jerry's kovachii seedlings. He had replated them into fresh flasks to grow further before deflasking. He felt that they needed more time in flask in order to be successful.

I'm not surprised! It sounded as though they'd been possibly jostled around rather well during travel - no fault of Jerry's! Luggage tossing and turbulance and all! :shock: (They couldn't have ripped them off my lap!!!!)

Not that that was his reason, but I found the story fascinating - so down to Earth and just like the issues the rest of us rest of us go through! Another reason why I love this hobby...everyone seems so normal! :D

Saw a pic showing size difference between kovachii and besseae

http://www.orchidando.net/images/kovachii/besseae-kovachii.jpg

@ http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.orchidee.cjb.net/orchigazette/phrag_kovachii.htm

But be warned it has an anoying background

Saw a pic showing size difference between kovachii and besseae

http://www.orchidando.net/images/kovachii/besseae-kovachii.jpg

@ http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.orchidee.cjb.net/orchigazette/phrag_kovachii.htm

But be warned it has an anoying background

Yep, sure does. If anyone hasn't worked out how to get around it simply select everything in the web page - this at least highlights the text and allows you to read it or copy it somewhere else.

As for the comparison shot - I am reminded of Homer Simpson's reaction to anything food :)

Waiting

Cheers
Stephan

Saw a pic showing size difference between kovachii and besseae

http://www.orchidando.net/images/kovachii/besseae-kovachii.jpg

@ http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.orchidee.cjb.net/orchigazette/phrag_kovachii.htm

But be warned it has an anoying background

Yep, sure does. If anyone hasn't worked out how to get around it simply select everything in the web page - this at least highlights the text and allows you to read it or copy it somewhere else.

As for the comparison shot - I am reminded of Homer Simpson's reaction to anything food :)

Waiting

Cheers
Stephan

Interesting saga, but what were the creators of that web page thinking! :roll:

Hrm, I had heard rumors of a roadside collection, but have not seen it anywhere in print. Does anyone know of any reliable sources for what actually went on in Peru and Florida?

--Stephen