I have asked this question in 2 other places so far and haven't had a reasonable answer as yet so I'll post it here.
For example, If I self a species orchid, for example, Paph lawrenceanum var Hyeanum, are the seedlings that result, Lawrenceanum v Hyeanum???

The reason I ask is that in the majority of species selfings of any orchid, variations occur in the plants and flowers. This being the case, then the use of the variety name "Hyeanum" should not appear on the seedlings when they are exhibited or sold as they are not "genuine Hyeanum" as they are not a division of the original plant. The only reference to "Hyeanum" should be as a parent.
No disrespect to the commercial growers here but I see seedlings listed as
P. Lawrenceanum v Hyeanum " Good one" = example extra clonal name, crossed something advertised. If there is some special feature about this plant then it is not "Hyeanum" particularly if it is from a seedling from a selfing.
It should then have the Hyeanum removed.

Lawrenceanum var.hyeanum x self is going to = Lawrenceanum var. hyeanum, how can it be anything else? :confused: There are variances in nature, x self is not cloning. Should it carry the clonal name 'Good One', is what I think you are asking? Probably not. It will always be a x self, that can't be changed. Your getting into technicalities in use of clonal names, what are the guidelines there? Here is where I can see confusion. Seeing siblings will carry different clonal names, therefore, I would expect that the seedlings resulting of that selfing would also carry a different clonal name as well.

Your comment the extra clonal name is correct, should or shouldn't it be there? I don't think it should be. I picked the Paphs for the simple reason that, in certain Paphs, it seems to be the big thing to continue the original clonal name in selfings where other forms of the species pop up with their own clonal names or the original, if applicable, is dropped when seedlings flower and new clonal names added.
In your comments I see you have suggested that the label would read, lawrenceanum fma Hyeanum x self and that variations do occur in nature. Those variations invariably come with different clonal names, so why would we put fma hyeanum only on the seedlings of a selfing. Your suggest the label should read 'x self ' which would indicate there is a potential to flower a plant that is not exactly or near to the parent and that this plant is not an actual piece of the plant, which it is not. As you said, it is not a mericlone. You have an albino Paph with it own characteristics that may be different to the parent, to me that then is not a true 'Hyeanum'. Its just P.lawrenceanum.

I'm not understanding your argument. You seem to be confusing variety and clones. They are different things. I'm not across the taxonomy of Paph lawrenceanum but I'm assuming the variety hyeanum is a distinctive population from the normal form of lawrenceanum . This population would be made up of many different clones, not a single one. And a selfing of one of these clones will maintain this distinction from other varieties of lawrenceanum.

I have quite a few selfings of Dendrobium speciosum variety speciosum "National White". These will be genetically different from their parent so they cannot be referred to as a clone of "National White" but they still will be from the variety speciosum. They will be distinctively different from the golden flowered variety Grandiflorum of SE Queensland or the tiny compact variety Pedunculatum of North Queensland or any of the other varieties. (I know some people are now referring to these varieties as species, but it doesn't change the argument).

David

I see all the time vendors selling selflings of particular clones. The reason why they keep the clonal name is so that you as a buyer will know those seedlings came from awarded or quality breeding stock. the "x self" portion indicates that you are not getting the actual plant and therefore it is a gamble whether or not the best genetic qualities of that particular named clone will be passed down to your seedling. That is why so many people buy multiple seedlings or compots of awarded selflings...so they might have a greater chance of getting a seedling that looks just like the awarded parent. Wouldn't you want to know if your roth has 'Rex' or 'MM' parentage?

As a buyer I want to know if my seedling came from an awarded clone so I think that vendors should keep the clonal name. Then if I happen to get an awardable perfect bloom from Lawrenceanum var. hyeanum 'Good One' x self then I can chose my own clonal name Lawrenceanum var. hyeanum 'Better One'. :D

Teresa, your description fits the bill much better than the explanations I've had so far and right on my thoughts. You know you are not buying an original plant but you know the stock it came from and the possiblity of getting something better. The clonal name "forma Hyeanum" was given to the original albino clones of P.lawrenceanum found. I believe that when an albino seedling flowers from a selfing, there is no need to include the 'fma Hyeanum" part because, as you say, its not an original plant. What you have is P.lawrenceanum v better one.
Roy

Roy, glad I made sense...:D

I think that names of plants have become pretty confusing overall. In an effort to make things more clear people give more and more names to plants thus making things more confusing. We have to keep the species name and clonal names separate...for example:

lawrenceanum var. hyeanum is the complete species name. "var. hyeanum" is synonomous with "var. album" if I am not mistaken. This indicates that your flower will be green without any red pigment. Without the "var. hyeanum" it is a completely different looking flower and not the same as plain lawrenceanum (which would be a reddish flower). This name cannot be made up by someone, it simply is the species name of the flower as determined by genetics, and must be kept.

'Good One' is a clonal name that is made up by the breeder or owner in order to distinguish a particular clone from all the other lawrenceanum var. hyeanums, usually because that particular clone has outstanding characteristics above other clones.

Teresa, you are correct only the term var, or more correctly forma Hyeanum is the name given to the albino form of P.lawrenceanum. It only recognises that. If you use...P.law' fma Hyeanum in breeding with any other Paph', the use of " fma Hyeanum is disregarded completely when registering the new cross with the RHS. All they are interested in is the Paph. lawrenceanum bit, the rest doen't matter.
I have e-mailed this topic question to a well known person in taxonomy and I will pass on his reply as soon as I have it.

That is a good question.....
Except I have no clue on what you guys are talking about! :p

Ok, here is the reply I just received by e-mail on this topic. It explains everything more clearly to me.

Dear Lee,
at first you must notice the difference between clonal names and the taxonomical level of a variety or forma.
Variety and forma are fixed as names by an official description, published in a official journal or book, documeted also by a herbar-specimen.
Clonal names are only names for a specific plant given by the owner. When you divide this plant you can give so this clonal name also to this plant.
You can find some clonal names for
Paph. lawrenceanum forma hyeanum
examples are

Paph. lawrenceanum forma hyeanum ‘Bernice’ get an AM 1978
Paph. lawrenceanum forma hyeanum ‘Albino Jamboree’ get an HCC 1993
Paph. lawrenceanum forma hyeanum ‘Candor Jade Crown’ get an AM 1995
Paph. lawrenceanum forma hyeanum ‘Candor Peridot’ get an AM 1996
Paph. lawrenceanum forma hyeanum ‘Green Aurora’ get an HCC 1997
Paph. lawrenceanum forma hyeanum ‘Kaleidoscope’ get HCC 1999
All these are different clones, but all are Paph. lawrenceanum forma hyeanum.
The description of this colour variety without any red colour was published the first time 1885 by Linden and Rodigas
The official name is now:
Paphiopedilum lawrenceanum forma hyeanum
When you make now a selfing of Paph. lawrenceanum forma hyeanum, you could get albine clones with the official name lawrenceanum forma hyeanum, because the definition is that these are Paph. lawrenceanum plants without any red coloration. But these seedlings have not the same clonal name. On the other hand you cannot be sure that the result will be totally albine, the coloured forms are then the normal lawrenceanum without any variety or forma – name.
In some species you have the good luck with 100 % albines like in Paph. delenatii, Paph. hennisianum, Paph. wardii.
The normal way is after a selfing: Write on the falsk with seedlings or the labels Paph. lawrenceanum forma hyeanum ‘Excellent’ X self.
When the seedlings are in flower then you can give an own cloneal name, like Paph. lawrenceanum forma hyeanum ‘Excalibur’


Best greetings and I hope that I could help a bit

Olaf

Olaf Gruß ( Olaf Gruss )
In der Au 48
83224 Grassau

I get it now!! :woohoo:

Good thread Roy, thanks for starting it! And thanks to Olaf for a good explanation! :cool:

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Exactly!!!

Ramon:D

Thanks all for your comments, with some of the discussion, elsewhere, I'm sorry I started it but all done now. If anyone is interested, I asked Olaf if the same rules as for P.law' fma Hyeanum in name registration. Its intersting to see what else is listed.
What still annoys me is that if I, you buy one of these listed plants, you may not actually be buying a piece of the original plant. All you are getting is something that has the name and looks like it in color if your lucky.

Thanks all for your comments, with some of the discussion, elsewhere, I'm sorry I started it but all done now. If anyone is interested, I asked Olaf if the same rules as for P.law' fma Hyeanum in name registration. Its intersting to see what else is listed.
What still annoys me is that if I, you buy one of these listed plants, you may not actually be buying a piece of the original plant. All you are getting is something that has the name and looks like it in color if your lucky.

And you have to be careful with albino seedings because genetically I think it is not always passed down 100% when crossed, but a breeder or someone with genetics background should answer that question because it is outside my realm of knowledge.:D At any rate if color variation allows for any red pigment then by definition the plant cannot be labeled albino, so could not carry the "fma hyeanum" name. I think there are different levels of albinism such as "fma aureum."

What still annoys me is that if I, you buy one of these listed plants, you may not actually be buying a piece of the original plant.

It's not a matter of "may be buying", you aren't. You have to remember there is (almost) no cloning of slippers other than division. Division takes time. Time costs money. If you aren't paying a decent amount for a particular clone, I'd be sceptical.

What still annoys me is that if I, you buy one of these listed plants, you may not actually be buying a piece of the original plant. All you are getting is something that has the name and looks like it in color if your lucky. Oh my, how things get complicated - the webs we spin.
There are no guarantees in nature, nor in life. We can't control mother nature, yet there are some trying to control genetics. My way of thinking, the breeder's are being upfront, what more can I ask for? Now it's up to me on taking a chance. If I want a 'guarantee', then be prepared to pay$$$, as Ty indicated, a division is the only way to actually get a piece of that plant. Here again, I look at things a bit differently - if I purchase a plant, whether it is x self or x sib, the DNA is there, so I feel I'm getting a 'piece' of that plant in a sense. If I were a serious, breeder/hybridizer/collector, then yes, I can see where it would make a difference. But for a hobbyist??? To me that's taking all the fun out of it. How many of us are excited about seeing that new sand x reveal itself?

Oh my, how things get complicated

You want complicated? I have been told by a reliable vendor/breeder that sometimes the xself only indicates that the plant was crossed by the same species, not by the awarded plant itself!!!:confused:

You want complicated? I have been told by a reliable vendor/breeder that sometimes the xself only indicates that the plant was crossed by the same species, not by the awarded plant itself!!!:confused:

WHAT!! I am in total disbelief! I think I need to lie down!